Old Vs New - Page 3

Roundy Mooney · 14 Feb 2007, 19:00 (Ref:1841534)

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.Lowe

No one complains about O'Donovans 306 thats not allowed in Europe but still races here.

I think you will find (and I'm open to correction) that O'Donavans 306 and Jobbs Escort were not going to be allowed run in the RSS Originally but it is amazing what a lack of entries will do for changing peoples minds on rules.

Guffy · 14 Feb 2007, 19:11 (Ref:1841539)

Ok put all div 1/supercars that isn't to European Regs in the revivals class..! Ok that would have only left Mad Marks Xsara, but hey hoe there you go..!

chunder · 14 Feb 2007, 19:13 (Ref:1841541)

Precisely!!

As said earlier, amazing what lack of entries does for peoples minds, maybe they should think of not having race meeitngs in the middle of winter!!

shhh · 14 Feb 2007, 19:17 (Ref:1841542)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roundy Mooney

I think you will find (and I'm open to correction) that O'Donavans 306 and Jobbs Escort were not going to be allowed run in the RSS Originally but it is amazing what a lack of entries will do for changing peoples minds on rules.

Very true, goalposts were changed due to lack of entries in the RSS

Chessmsport · 14 Feb 2007, 19:42 (Ref:1841560)

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.Lowe

No one complains about O'Donovans 306 thats not allowed in Europe but still races here.

The 306 is still homologated for the ERC but that particular car is not eligble for technical reasons. Also Jobbs Escort could be used in Eurpoe if entered as RS2000 but again is not allowed because I believe its bulkhead is modified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonidas

Should all be here I think...

http://www.fia.com/sport/Homologatio..._vehicles.html

Plus you can add 4 years to it to run in the ERC

We have the best supported Div1/Supercar car class in Europe several national championships only have 2 or 3 cars so I guess we can consider ourselves lucky.

Barrie · 14 Feb 2007, 21:06 (Ref:1841631)

With two rounds of the ERC up for grabs there's a real chance of getting the British ERC round back if rallycross organises pull together, alot of members on this forum may not have attended Lydden in the ERC days, think Easter Monday x 10 for excitement and spectacle, though Croft would probably be looked at as a more serious venue. It dosent look great seeing a RS200 and 1 or 2 6R4's on the entry when FIA may well be looking at Britain as a contender for a round.

M.Lowe · 14 Feb 2007, 21:38 (Ref:1841667)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrie

It dosent look great seeing a RS200 and 1 or 2 6R4's on the entry when FIA may well be looking at Britain as a contender for a round.

Totally disagree there Barrie, as we all know a ERC round wouldnt have Group B cars in it and if a round in Britain was to be held the venues would be looked at not the cars.

We already have cars that are new and could contest ERC events so the bit about Group B cars shouldn't even come into it

chris cake · 14 Feb 2007, 21:54 (Ref:1841684)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunder

Precisely!!

As said earlier, amazing what lack of entries does for peoples minds, maybe they should think of not having race meeitngs in the middle of winter!!

There was no lack of entries at all this is not true!
In the beginning Rallycross was a winter sport ! Thats the trouble most people have forgoten this major point . The many entries we had about 70 really injoyed their day .

Barrie · 14 Feb 2007, 21:56 (Ref:1841688)

But there mixed in with the Div 1 machinery, the RPL team have asked FIA what needs to be done to reclaim a ERC round, simply get inline with ERC regs that is happening , personally I love the Group B cars, historic classes are a more viable option. Saying all that we should get a ERC round automatically for inventing the sport and the home of rallycross Lydden should be the venue.

M.Lowe · 14 Feb 2007, 22:12 (Ref:1841697)

I do agree tha we need another ERC round and my last ne spectating was at Croft when Schanche pushed Pallier over (I have the pics) but I think th FIA would require a bit more than (dont run group B with Div 1 cars) as this is our own domestic championship.

An event like the Superprix would be the best bet for a ERC round as its a stand alone event and its at one if not thee fastest rallycross circuits in Britain
CROFT FOR ERC event

Mad Mark Watson · 15 Feb 2007, 08:28 (Ref:1841937)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guffy

Ok put all div 1/supercars that isn't to European Regs in the revivals class..! Ok that would have only left Mad Marks Xsara, but hey hoe there you go..!

[PHP][PHP]
May as well join in, can i just say that reason i bought xsara was it was a modern car and able to run in europe thinking the BRC would be along same lines so both were same. Was a little surprised when rolled out at Lydden to find 6R4's still here after a break from the sport of 10 years. I love Rallycross and hate the fact that it has not exploded like some other championships and not become as prolific. My view is that we need to field modern cars to make public recognise the vehicles we run and see if we can get more manufaturer involvement.
I for my part will do everything to bring sponsors into sport and publicise events and put on a professional show that will make public, spectators and viewers realise that Rallycross is going forward and be up there with the best forms of motorsport.]

leonidas · 15 Feb 2007, 10:51 (Ref:1842004)

I think there are really two issues here...

1. How do we get an ERC round back?

A. Encourage as many competitors to go to full Div. 1 spec. You could do this by allowing all supercars to run together but only allow full Div. 1 cars to score MSA championship points. That way the public spectacle is still there but the ERC organisers know that the BRC is fully committed to a 'European parity' future.

2. How to improve the presentation of the sport to tv networks and motorsport opinion formers?

A. This is more about the presentation of the cars. If people present cars at scrutineering that look a mess they should be warned and on second offense sent home. A bit of paint and new bumpers/doors from the scapyard don't cost a lot even in budget series. You could also announce that by say 2012 all cars in the MSA series must be no more than four years beyond the end of homologation. That would give everyone 5 years (at least) with their current machinery and plenty of time to plan new cars / reshells. Non-homologated to run in revivals or BTRDA.

silver bullet · 15 Feb 2007, 12:23 (Ref:1842084)

Can I throw another thought into this.
What are we talking about here, one regular competitor and another who has two 'spare cars' to use loan or hire out when drivers main cars are not ready.
Do you not think that if these cars were put into a historic class it might actually entice other people to bring their 6R4's RS200's etc out to play. Therefore we may see more of these wonderful cars out, rather than the one or two we get at the moment

Guffy · 15 Feb 2007, 12:50 (Ref:1842105)

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonidas

A. Encourage as many competitors to go to full Div. 1 spec. You could do this by allowing all supercars to run together but only allow full Div. 1 cars to score MSA championship points. That way the public spectacle is still there but the ERC organisers know that the BRC is fully committed to a 'European parity' future.

This just wouldn't work, How would a competitor chasing championship points feel if he was accidently taken out by someone who wasn't eligble for points, Plus who would want to bring out and run a super car with nothing to aim for..? ie points

chris cake · 15 Feb 2007, 12:55 (Ref:1842109)

Quote:

Originally Posted by silver bullet

Can I throw another thought into this.
What are we talking about here, one regular competitor and another who has two 'spare cars' to use loan or hire out when drivers main cars are not ready.
Do you not think that if these cars were put into a historic class it might actually entice other people to bring their 6R4's RS200's etc out to play. Therefore we may see more of these wonderful cars out, rather than the one or two we get at the moment

Very good point David.

You just have to look at some of the cars which are being rolled out to race in the Revivals already!
With 6 - 8 group B cars in one race surely that would keep everyone happy.

PhergAthor · 15 Feb 2007, 13:25 (Ref:1842136)

Bit of a surprising discussion here.

Is the question: should Gibson be banned? Because GT and DC will race cars within the ERC regs. Is all the fuss about 1 Metro, because you should expand the discussion to all non-ERC allowed Supercars. Eg the tubular chassis cars. So what if there are some cars not allowed in Europe, the main thing is that new machinery is encouraged.
You even should not start discussion on homologation in low-budget classes like stockhach.
As far as cars matter to get an ERC-round: there should be a field that can compete in the ERC, thats all.
A far bigger problem for GBR to get a round is the circuit. There are some strickt rules to be approved as an ERC venue. And I am not sure if any of the British circuits comply.

The old vs new topic here comes down to small entries at events, but then we must also restart the everlasting debate about drivers only willing to start in one of two RX-championships.

leonidas · 15 Feb 2007, 13:50 (Ref:1842160)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guffy

This just wouldn't work, How would a competitor chasing championship points feel if he was accidently taken out by someone who wasn't eligble for points,

That's racing. That sort of thing happens all the time in multi-class circuit racing - and just about every year at Le Mans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guffy

Plus who would want to bring out and run a super car with nothing to aim for..? ie points,

Well it wouldn't bother me providing it was part of a competitive well matched race. Its better than having no-one to race against. A 6R4 is unlikely to win the BRC championship again anyway as things have moved on. If you've got a Group B car you're not running it to impress a manufacturer or as a career move - you're doing for fun. You can still hope to win the odd meeting and take home the bragging rights...

Alternatively have an official MSA British Championship for Div. 1 only and BRDA Rallycross Masters Championship for all 4wd (div 1 and Group B)? (but run together)

WJM · 15 Feb 2007, 14:44 (Ref:1842205)

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonidas

I think there are really two issues here...

1. How do we get an ERC round back?

A. Encourage as many competitors to go to full Div. 1 spec. You could do this by allowing all supercars to run together but only allow full Div. 1 cars to score MSA championship points. That way the public spectacle is still there but the ERC organisers know that the BRC is fully committed to a 'European parity' future.

Division 1 is not the problem in Britain. There are plenty of Division 1 cars that can make up a decent 20+ car field if there was an European race. The problem are the other classes Division 1a and Division 2. They would not even reach 10 drivers if an ERC round was held. Therefore it's quite a huge error from both organisers that they haven't opened up a class for Division 2. Since the ERC restarts the class this year it would be a perfect opportunity to make a fresh step towards European regulations.

leonidas · 15 Feb 2007, 15:30 (Ref:1842240)

I take your point about 1A but the perception over here is that current Div 2 is dead so no-one is going to run one. To be fair several existing ERC rounds run with very few cars in classes 1A and 2 from the home country. Any ERC event at Lydden would get a reasonable entry from France and Bel/Ned anyway.

There may be some British support for the new RWD Cup class but I haven't seen any published regulations for this yet. Do you know if they've been published or are available online somewhere?

WJM · 15 Feb 2007, 15:52 (Ref:1842259)

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonidas

Any ERC event at Lydden would get a reasonable entry from France and Bel/Ned anyway.

But I doubt Lydden Hill will ever host an ERC race again. It's very far from European standard.

Quote:

There may be some British support for the new RWD Cup class but I haven't seen any published regulations for this yet. Do you know if they've been published or are available online somewhere?

It's been on the FIA site for a few months now.
http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...04_Art_279.pdf
The new regulations are in article 6.

Thundersports · 15 Feb 2007, 18:30 (Ref:1842407)

Rallycross tried to start modernising before in the 90s with banning the old cars which to quote "Arthur Debenham" was suicide for the championship which was proved correct. Rallycross is about variety and I for one would be less inclined to go if I thought there would be no Group B dinosaurs competing.
Another point is if Mr Cake and the BRDA want to have a strong series then they should start TALKING to each other. As it stands at the moment we have one good series and one half arsed attempt which is diluting the competitors, sponsers, TV etc.
The "super series" has old cars in Div 1 the 306 and Escorts and is supported by the also rans from the BRDA championship, it will only gain credability once the likes of Dermot, Doran, Evans etc compete on a regular basis rather than using it as a pre-season test.

M.Lowe · 15 Feb 2007, 18:38 (Ref:1842419)

Newer cars
Carnegie Focus now Fiesta
Doran Fiesta
Watson Xsara
Evans Astra
Bell Corolla
Mundy Focus
Gollop / Jordan Focus
McCann Subaru
McCluskey Xsara
Tracey 307
O'Donovan 306
Grant Escort
Jobb Escort RS2000

Any others?

Group B cars
Tracey RS200/ 6R4
Gibson 6R4
Rob Gibson 6R4 when hes out

Ian Rowlance 6R4

What other 6R4's / RS200's compete?

Ye Group B cars really are holding the newer cars back
Like I said let the older cars race in the BRC, ROC but not allow them to compete IF we get a ERC round

If you put the Group B cars in revivals / historic class how will it be before the RWD historics start moaning about them winning everything

Remember the Spaceframes that where going to be allowed to compete with the supercars/ div 1 cars they never took off did they?

M.Lowe · 15 Feb 2007, 18:45 (Ref:1842425)

Proper engine sound

http://www.johnpricerallying.co.uk/metro6r4.mp3

M.Lowe · 15 Feb 2007, 18:52 (Ref:1842437)

Sorry Chris I missed the Corsa out on my list above

leonidas · 15 Feb 2007, 19:43 (Ref:1842483)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thundersports

As it stands at the moment we have one good series and one half arsed attempt which is diluting the competitors, sponsers, TV etc.

I don't want the thread to take a 'mine's bigger than your's' line but... I'm very impressed by what Chris, Peter and the open championship are doing. They've got a range of high profile sponsors, a tv deal, a dvd review, they produce good promotional material and a website that is updated almost daily. They've organised the first successful winter meeting for ages. That doesn't strike me as 'half arsed'...