Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

As much as I love Tesla (Model S is my dream car currently!), the power and performance comes at a cost. There's a reason they cost well over double other mass manufactured electric vehicles, and Tesla still operate at a loss. And that's before you talk about the range drop when pushing the car, which would become a huge issue with a racing vehicle. Quick swap batteries don't mean much when it's every 3 laps of Le Mans.

Full electric is a nice idea. But it's the same as hydrogen - the cost of development is monumental. You can't open P1 regulations up further, and decrease costs. Unfortunately, if you want cutting edge technology and big manufacturers to develop it, it'll come at a cost. I personally love the idea, but I don't think it'll end well.

I guess we have different ideas of what we consider respectable speeds in regards to Formula E. The cars look embarrassingly slow. The helicopter shots look like milk floats.

Yes, they look slow. But it doesn't mean they are. They're not f1 or lmp speeds, so they are relatively slow compared to other open wheel series, but they're about as fast as GTE. Like I said before, that's with the restricted power and spec batteries/chassis. Regeneration from braking is limited to 150kw (from 100kw last season). That's a smaller amount than what the lmp1's do. Power output is capped at 200kw and the rating is 28kw/h. Huge reasons for their limited speed. That's not to say that the tech being used useless, but if it were opened up they would be a lot quicker. That can happen in the wec if the rules let it.

Originally Posted by J Jay

Forgive me if I'm about to sacrifice the sacred cow, but why not? These cars are at least the equal of F1 cars tech-wise, and they're within a few seconds on the circuits shared by both (and that's with at least 200 kg more and a small ICE deficit due to lesser fuel flow). It would make sense that the budgets are in the same order of magnitude as the better F1 teams.

Not to me. They don't need to spend $200, 300 million a year. Chasing the tiniest of margins is something F1 is having trouble with, the last thing the wec needs is lmp's doing the same thing. That's why I suggested that aero rules be opened up so more avenues of development can be explored instead of just the front wing or some strakes in that area. Closing off thing like the fender height and mandating other parts of the body not having a wing shape or less freedom of the floor etc.

Originally Posted by Chiana

I would love to have Pug back.

But not if it came as result of even further cost capping to accommodate them. That's just lobbying and trapping. Come if you can meet the terms, if not, don't bother with factory involvement but rather invest pennies in providing conventional customer chassis/engines for LMP1 privateers or something.

Toyota and FIA reshuffling have resulted in far enough restrictions already, let it not go beyond what we have now. It's not the fault of the "over spending" that F1 has fallen into oblivion in the last few years, quite contrary.

What did Toyota do to influence the restrictions? Things like the bodywork agreement was signed off by all the teams. What's more restrictive now than 2011, the last year Peugeot was racing? It's not like the rules have suddenly become this way. The fins and fender holes and such are not my favorite, but it was going that way before Toyota joined.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

Yes, they look slow. But it doesn't mean they are. They're not f1 or lmp speeds, so they are relatively slow compared to other open wheel series, but they're about as fast as GTE.

Are they? Because the Formula E lap record around Donington was about a 1:28, and British GT were lapping faster than that. A professional GTE is going to be a good few seconds down the road. Formula E does these odd little street circuits because it hides the fact it tops out about 130mph. If you put them on proper race tracks it'd look a bit embarrassing really.

You're quite right in that they are held back technically, so it could change with opened regulations. But that's all just theory until someone actually does it. We'll see how FE does in the future, but right now it's a bit of a nothing series tbh.

I don't see how opening up the regulations would reduce costs. The opening up of the regulations to include hybrid systems was what caused the sudden balloon in budgets. Audis was high before, but not as high as now. Cutting edge tech costs a lot of money.

[GasperG]

Battery tech is improving lightning fast, 5 years ago there were EVs with 24 kWh battery, today we have 40 kWh in the same size and weight. Today we have Formula E with 28 kWh and 200 kW power in five years we will have 60 kWh and 400 kW.

But still on board energy is and still will be huge limitation for years to come. But one thing is certain ICE will play less and less role of the power output, it will have more and more role only in generating energy.

[schmidder]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

You're right it's not the WEC, wishful thinking on my part

http://www.mazdaraceway.com/homepage...year-long-60th

The Motorsport Reunion keeps it's place in August. Which makes me curious. I can't see the track calling Ferrari Challenge days "exotic sportscar event"

The only thing I can think of is the Porsche Rennsport, which has been around twice in 3 years, typically in the month of October. Now that the events in the Fall have been occupied, a move to May is not out of the ordinary. I just find it a bit odd they wouldn't just say it is the Rennsport, that event has been a success...unless of course it's just a formality and nothing can be definitive until official.

I really doubt it's rennsport. And there has not been two in the last three years. There was one last year, and little chance of another within two years, the usually are 4 years or so apart. And I don't see it being a spring event either..

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[BullMan]

Panoz wants to go back to GT racing with the new Esperante. Doeesn't know if it will be GT3 or GTE yet, though I'd bet on GT3.

http://sportscar365.com/gt/panoz-tar...ante-avezzano/

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Panoz wants to go back to GT racing with the new Esperante. Doeesn't know if it will be GT3 or GTE yet, though I'd bet on GT3.

http://sportscar365.com/gt/panoz-tar...ante-avezzano/

No mention of the earlier rumoured DPi program so we can figure that one is down and out pretty clearly now


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[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Panoz wants to go back to GT racing with the new Esperante. Doeesn't know if it will be GT3 or GTE yet, though I'd bet on GT3.

http://sportscar365.com/gt/panoz-tar...ante-avezzano/

Panoz as a racing marquee really meant something for a while... I wish they would stop tarnishing the name.

[chernaudi]

It meant something unique and interesting for about 10 years, then Don let it lapse into irrelevancy.

[TF110]

Well the car looks about 10 years old

[chernaudi]

Panoz 1997-2006: An interesting and highly successful take on road racing and car building for prototypes and GT cars.

Panoz 2007 to present: After winning GT2 (now GTE Pro) at LM in '06, it seems that Don took a step back and lost interest, having done what he had set out to do (win Le Mans). Panoz Esperante GT2 became increasingly obsolescent, Panoz wanted to sell control of IMSA to Jim France as early as 2007, relied on Audi and Porsche to heavily bankroll the series, and was in deep crap when they killed their prototype programs and reduced involvement in the ALMS.

Also, the Esperante hasn't changed much since 2000 when it came out as a road car (yes, TF110, it's actually more like 15 years old, but you're right, it hasn't changed much at all over that time, though I was shocked that Panoz were still making them to this date). It's basically existed because of EPA, NHTSA and NTSB loopholes (and, IMO, atrophy seeing how hard they went after Toyota for the gas pedal issues--which were mostly driver error induced--and now the VW emissions deal and related tax dollar losses that the EPA lost out of) of using someone else's parts to homologate the car for sale. The Esperante has used Ford 4.6 Modular and now 5.0 Coyote V8s out of Ford Mustangs, and (though never intended to be sold in NA), the Abrruzi used the GM LS V8 out of a Corvette.

[Makaze]

Penske offered JPM a contract for Indy 500 only and Sports Car Program for next year.

Another hint that Penske will be racing IMSA and Le Mans in 2018.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Makaze

Penske offered JPM a contract for Indy 500 only and Sports Car Program for next year.

Another hint that Penske will be racing IMSA and Le Mans in 2018.

No. Cindric said if they did a program they'd want him involved. There is zero guarantee of that happening.

[Makaze]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

No. Cindric said if they did a program they'd want him involved. There is zero guarantee of that happening.

John Oreoricz came out after talking to Cindric and Montoya that there is a sports car program.

It will not be confirmed until it's confirmed.In(me) discussion with Montoya at Sonoma,JPM told me he is not ready to go to sports car hell yet.Penske is floating the Indy 500 to get him to stay but Montoya is not ready to leave Indycar yet.The team already has a good sports car tester in the Frog,just wants to keep good racers too.

[Makaze]

So LMP1 future=EV and Hydrogen?

Talk from the Big Three from Germany after the Real World C02 and NOX testing in the future.(EU) This is where they are going in place of diesels.

So a 2020 EV/FCEV Le Mans P1 field look like.

Audi
MB
BMW

GM(Honda and GM working together on FC, they hold the most FC patents)
Ford

Honda
Toyota
Nissan

French?(Renault,Peugeot)
Italians?(Fiat)

Koreans?

Chinese?

[MagVanisher]

Don't forget Mazda as they're doing hydrogen-fueled cars, but I doubt that they'll have the capacity to make an LMP1 car.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

No. Cindric said if they did a program they'd want him involved. There is zero guarantee of that happening.

Maybe they are still negotiating the famous Penske "unfair advantage".....or in simple terms, they are finalizing what areas they will be allowed to cheat in by the organizing body, as has always been the case with Penske racing.

Money "buys" you the unfair advantage.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Maybe they are still negotiating the famous Penske "unfair advantage".....or in simple terms, they are finalizing what areas they will be allowed to cheat in by the organizing body, as has always been the case with Penske racing.

Money "buys" you the unfair advantage.

But Penske doesn't spend his own, so, it's corporate dollars "buying the advantage"

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Makaze

John Oreoricz came out after talking to Cindric and Montoya that there is a sports car program.

Prove it.

It will not be confirmed until it's confirmed.

So. Never then.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Maybe they are still negotiating the famous Penske "unfair advantage".....or in simple terms, they are finalizing what areas they will be allowed to cheat in by the organizing body, as has always been the case with Penske racing.

Money "buys" you the unfair advantage.

2009 Grand Am season would seem to disagree. ;-)

[Makaze]

The talk is getting louder in Charlotte about Penske running a Oreca 7 next year with Gibson then going Dpi in 2018.

Formula Fox.....you moving to Charlotte?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Makaze

The talk is getting louder in Charlotte about Penske running a Oreca 7 next year with Gibson then going Dpi in 2018.

Formula Fox.....you moving to Charlotte?

Yes, but this is not the program I am involved in.

The decision was made last weekend to stick to the original "one year of testing" plan before debut, rather than rush things due to the lateness of cars and rules, meaning the entry has been pushed back to 2018. Assuming no cancellation or other unforseeable problems(like the ones that cancelled the plan to move the facility to Florida), we move into the facility in April.

The program I'm with also may put forth funding to get another DPi manufacturer in the field - the owners do not trust IMSA to fairly balance P2 with DPi. They'll be running Ligiers regardless.

[Makaze]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Yes, but this is not the program I am involved in.

The decision was made last weekend to stick to the original "one year of testing" plan before debut, rather than rush things due to the lateness of cars and rules, meaning the entry has been pushed back to 2018. Assuming no cancellation or other unforseeable problems(like the ones that cancelled the plan to move the facility to Florida), we move into the facility in April.

The program I'm with also may put forth funding to get another DPi manufacturer in the field - the owners do not trust IMSA to fairly balance P2 with DPi. They'll be running Ligiers regardless.

I spend a few days a month in a R&D building at Raymond, close too you?
They are using Ligier too.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Makaze

I spend a few days a month in a R&D building at Raymond, close too you?
They are using Ligier too.

Nope. Their cars aren't stateside yet - they're staying in Europe for testing of a possible WEC P2 program(which if greenlit will be in addition to the IMSA program) until the US facility is ready and the P2/DPi matter is decided regarding IMSA.

[TzeiTzei]

IMSA + WEC. That's a big program...

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

IMSA + WEC. That's a big program...

Lot of fairly big people involved. Which frankly is my biggest concern about it - the decision to delay took so long because it's not easy to get all those people in one place at one time for such decision making. If the program dies for any reason other than bad decisions by IMSA(though it'd take something directly meant to screw us specifically at this point), it'll be something related to that.