Grand-Am running scared

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So possibilities in GA are somehow better than possibilities in the ALMS? If you really think Penske will stick around without other people's money funding him you have no clue about how he operates. As for some of those other teams building their own engines, other than the Dinan built BMW, none of the private engines have looked at all reliable or viable. That will just get even harder if everyone jumps on the Ford bangwagon, I'll believe the Pontiacs will all be Chevy when I see it at Daytona. NO ONE will run the flat-6 911 engine without Porsche pushing for rules breaks so it can be competitive with the V8s and there's no way Porsche will come back as long as the Cayenne V8 is allowed to run.
I'm feeling like an even bigger drop-off is in store for the GA after Daytona than the ALMS will suffer in this off-season.

As for Pageneud looking for a ride for next season, why havent I seen that posted anywhere else? Seems like something that would be big news in any forum?

There's 4 SBC motors in the DP class right now, 3 badged as Chevys, only the Gainsco car is still running "Pontiac" livery.

Pageneud has been reported multiple times by Miller as well as the usual cadre of sportscar sites.

[italiastraps]

I've never been a huge fan of Grand-Am, but the one part of the blog I agree with is that the ALMS class system is confusing to fans. Over the years I taken a number of friends to ALMS events who were just casual race fans. It is very difficult to get them to understand (insert 20 minute explanation to friend) why the P1 and P2s aren't "really" racing each other, etc... Adding new classes will just add to the confusion.

If Grand-Am really goes under, I wonder how tied ALMS will be to the newly announced class structure? I bet they would be able to poach at least some of the Grand-Am teams to come-up with a decent grid.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

The concepts of irony and sarcasm are clearly lost on someone of your, uh, how shall we say, "intellect". Judging by the other responses I've read here such as "Horndawg" and such, I'll be sure to tailor my writing style towards a room full of 10 year olds. Obviously gotta work to the audience.



Porsche's "factory" support in GA only dates back to 2007. Prior to that it was privately built motors. Brumos ran them all the way back to 2003, so I don't see a huge change there. Pontiac has already been rebadged as "Chevrolet" on a few of the cars running the LS2/LS6, much as it was when the DP class began in 2003 and ran until 2004. Prior to 2006, there was practically no "factory" supporting money at all for any of the motors.

Reading the GA competitor board, if anything, you get the feeling that the HP war between GM & Toyota caused more issues and drove costs up ridiculously, so losing their "official" participation isn't necessarily as bad as it looks on paper.

The nature of the GA engine model is skewed more towards private engine builders to begin with. Losing factory support doesn't mean the engines dissapear. In addition to the LS2s, Porsche flat 6's, Lexus and Ford mod motors, you still have the Porsche V8, Dinan built BMW S62 motor, the Honda V6, the Nissan 4.5 V8, which obviously hasn't run in a few seasons, and Supercar life has a test mule running a Ferrari V8 right now. Obviously none of those engine programs have any factory backing, but the options are still there.

Address the content of the post itself, don't attack the person who posted it...

Adhere to the rule or you will face consequences...

Mod hat off... Now Back to the Subject at Hand...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Address the content of the post itself, don't attack the person who posted it...

Tim if you read the way some addressed him you seem to have a double standard.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Tim if you read the way some addressed him you seem to have a double standard.

News at 11: Double Standards in a Grand Am thread...

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by italiastraps

I've never been a huge fan of Grand-Am, but the one part of the blog I agree with is that the ALMS class system is confusing to fans. Over the years I taken a number of friends to ALMS events who were just casual race fans. It is very difficult to get them to understand (insert 20 minute explanation to friend) why the P1 and P2s aren't "really" racing each other, etc... Adding new classes will just add to the confusion.

If Grand-Am really goes under, I wonder how tied ALMS will be to the newly announced class structure? I bet they would be able to poach at least some of the Grand-Am teams to come-up with a decent grid.

I've never been a huge fan of all these different classes myself. I think one GT class and one prototype class is sufficient. That would probably be my only issue with ALMS.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Tim if you read the way some addressed him you seem to have a double standard.

I received an e-mail notice about his specific quote, Bob, and responded to it before going into a meeting...

As I read the whole thread, I do believe that some others were getting close to the line as well, so I'll state this for all participating in this thread:

Address the post itself and do not attack the poster...be civil about this or I'll close the thread.

We should all be adults about this and discuss this in an intelligent manner...period.

[JAG]

Sportscar fans are passionate about the ALMS, Grand Am is just another series that wouldn't be missed.

Obviously Grand Am works for some teams, probably because of their connections with NASCAR.

Teams that make an impact in the ALMS will go down in sportscar history like the Gulf 917's or NPTI Nissans, Grand Am runners will be lost in the mix.

That's pretty sad for Grand Am teams as much of the attraction of sportscar racing is the history and legacy manufactuer's and teams can create in the sport.

[isynge]

I honestly think the ALMS has some things it can learn from Grand Am.

Longer races appealing to gentleman drivers would help budget wise.

Cars that are perhaps a touch lower spec and, dare I say it, not quite as challenging to drive or maintain, could be a model for how something akin to LMP2 might work.

What seems more or less guaranteed to not work is engaging in a fratricidal war of words. A positive message and a sport that seems on top of its issues and focuses mainly on delivering a good product is one that will attract marketing budgets; senior executives spending time taking idle pot shots at the other series won't.

When the two series resort to seeing the other as the real enemy, and make quite barbed comments, as Jim Hunter does in his blog post, reminds me of nothing so much as Jose Luis Borges' comment about the Falklands, that it was basically a case of two bald men fighting over a comb. If anything this sort of spat is what should be seen as ill advised and counter productive.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by isynge

I honestly think the ALMS has some things it can learn from Grand Am.

Longer races appealing to gentleman drivers would help budget wise.

Cars that are perhaps a touch lower spec and, dare I say it, not quite as challenging to drive or maintain, could be a model for how something akin to LMP2 might work. Hmm, I think that is what LMPC is supposed to be, which should be convertible to the 2011 new P-2 class, no?

What seems more or less guaranteed to not work is engaging in a fratricidal war of words. A positive message and a sport that seems on top of its issues and focuses mainly on delivering a good product is one that will attract marketing budgets; senior executives spending time taking idle pot shots at the other series won't.

When the two series resort to seeing the other as the real enemy, and make quite barbed comments, as Jim Hunter does in his blog post, reminds me of nothing so much as Jose Luis Borges' comment about the Falklands, that it was basically a case of two bald men fighting over a comb. If anything this sort of spat is what should be seen as ill advised and counter productive.

L.P.

[joeb]

If the LMPC class cars are convertible to 2011 P2 rules, then the ALMS may have done something smart here! They may be bringing new teams into the series, and providing them a platform to stay. If the chassis can take more than one engine in the future, I could see more teams picking up on the deal now. This is something that the ALMS should be mentioning to any teams who show interest in the LMPC class - especially to GA teams who are used to have a choice of engine to put in their Riley.

[Purist]

I don't really think the ALMS has much to learn from Grand-Am in terms of race durations. GA has six 250mi/2:45 races, one 250mi/2:30 race, one 250mi/2:20 race, two 200mi/2:00 races, a six-hour race, and a 24-hour race. ALMS has five 2:45 races, one 1:55 race, one 1:40 race, one four-hour race, one 1000mi/10:00 race, and a 12-hour race. And honestly, you quickly get into a game of diminishing returns on street circuits, as the benefits of longer races for gentlemen drivers become outweighed by higher risks of binning the car.

I don't understand what's so hard about explaining multiple classes in understandable terms. I'm more than half blind, but can still visually tell the differences between an LMP and LMP2 or a GT1 and a GT2. With GTs, it's just intuitive that when two cars weigh similar amounts, the one that is visibly more aerodynamically tuned and that has 35% more power will be decidedly faster. Between LMP classes. the LMP1s at least look bigger, and have decidedly larger engines. By the numbers, the LMP1s are just 6% heavier, but have 36% more power. It seems clear which one should be going for overall honors.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Dyson is a joke of a team.

I have a big problem with this statement. While I think we could all agree that Dyson has had their problems this year and never really got on a par with Penske in regards to competing in the RS Spyder, calling them a joke is really way off base. Dyson certainly don't need me to be an apologist for them as they are the kind of guys that don't look for excuses and wouldn't want anyone to make excuses for them. These are the kind of guys that keep sportscar racing going in the lean years. They are the kinds of guys that put out their own money (with some sponsorship of course) to compete. I don't want to go into a diatribe on their history and, in fact, I certainly don't know it all. Sufice it to say, my first memory of them is racing Firebirds in the middle 80s in the GTO Division of IMSA and then they went out and bought themselves a Porsche 962 during the 1985 season. They won their first race (Lime Rock I believe) against many more famous teams with higher budgets. In fact, they were in the top 5 in their first 5 races and were always a top flight competitor in the IMSA days starting in 1985 and beyond with at least a few wins each year. They were on board with ALMS early on and have been a great competitor. To be soundly beaten by Audi and Penski is no embarrassment considering the differences in budget. My guess is, they will get things righted with the Lola-Mazda and compete as they always have and give a great accounting of themselves in the near future.

My apologies for putting this in this thread, but I didn't think calling "Dyson a joke of a team" should be unchallenged as I noticed a few others have also commented above. I just wanted to throw in a few facts regarding their stellar racing record.

DK

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

Teams that make an impact in the ALMS will go down in sportscar history like the Gulf 917's or NPTI Nissans, Grand Am runners will be lost in the mix.

That's pretty sad for Grand Am teams as much of the attraction of sportscar racing is the history and legacy manufactuer's and teams can create in the sport.

That statement, at least as we see it now, is very poignant, and sadly very true, due to the nothingness (not connected to how good make x, y, or z was/is) of the way the rules are written.

The IMSA for all the crap I give them, have factory battles that will be remembered.

[fieldodreams79]

i must say that i have tried to support the GA for what it was in the beginning, but i just don't see how the series can go any further with or without competition from the ALMS. i believe the concept was great but it was executed with complete and utter stupidy.

Originally Posted by dxk1

My apologies for putting this in this thread, but I didn't think calling "Dyson a joke of a team" should be unchallenged as I noticed a few others have also commented above. I just wanted to throw in a few facts regarding their stellar racing record.
DK

i did not feel liking wasting my time defending a team that has been a rock in the American sportscar racing for many years, but am happy to see the support...well put, DK.

they have always been a "David vs Goliath" kind of team and I have been a big supporter since I first saw the team in the R&S at my 1st PLM. can't really diss a team for going hard two years as the only challenge to Audi in a way too tightly wound up MG/Lola that usually ended up in retiring spectacularly trying keep up with big money, BIG MONEY.

[gttouring]

as far as a challenge class goes- how hard is it to hire a driver, and test each entry at a track and base the cars off the lap times and adjust accordingly.

Speed GT does pretty well with vastly differnt machinery.
so what gives with ALMS or GA struggling for full grids and balanced competition.
is the answer too easy to get a balance to easy.

and dyson history speaks volumes, they are a truly stellar and upstart privateer team doing battle with much mightier (financially) teams

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

L.P.

Oh Yeah!

Originally Posted by dxk1

I have a big problem with this statement. While I think we could all agree that Dyson has had their problems this year and never really got on a par with Penske in regards to competing in the RS Spyder, calling them a joke is really way off base. Dyson certainly don't need me to be an apologist for them as they are the kind of guys that don't look for excuses and wouldn't want anyone to make excuses for them. These are the kind of guys that keep sportscar racing going in the lean years. They are the kinds of guys that put out their own money (with some sponsorship of course) to compete. I don't want to go into a diatribe on their history and, in fact, I certainly don't know it all. Sufice it to say, my first memory of them is racing Firebirds in the middle 80s in the GTO Division of IMSA and then they went out and bought themselves a Porsche 962 during the 1985 season. They won their first race (Lime Rock I believe) against many more famous teams with higher budgets. In fact, they were in the top 5 in their first 5 races and were always a top flight competitor in the IMSA days starting in 1985 and beyond with at least a few wins each year. They were on board with ALMS early on and have been a great competitor. To be soundly beaten by Audi and Penski is no embarrassment considering the differences in budget. My guess is, they will get things righted with the Lola-Mazda and compete as they always have and give a great accounting of themselves in the near future.

My apologies for putting this in this thread, but I didn't think calling "Dyson a joke of a team" should be unchallenged as I noticed a few others have also commented above. I just wanted to throw in a few facts regarding their stellar racing record.

DK

Thanks for posting DK. The poster's statement was uninformed and, well, wrong.

[Purist]

I'll acknowledge that the engine situation may not be quite as bad as it looks, but without those manufacturers footing the bills for TV and a heck of a lot of other stuff, Grand-Am will definitely be in trouble without their money.

And yes, a toast to Dyson is very much in order. They did very well in the Porsche 962 days, and after what happened with Holbert, became the Porsche flagbearers in the old IMSA. Also, despite the fragility of the Lola/MGs, Dyson managed five victories against the factory Audis in 2003-05 (the first coming at Sears Point in 2003).

GTTouring, at least on the ALMS side of things, there are some complications with the Challenge class. There is not a fully developed GT3 class over here; it's mainly just the Porsches. Also, the Speed GT cars aren't necessarily built as close to production as what we see in GT2 (though I don't think they're tube framers). Certainly the Viper Competition Coupe wasn't close enough to be ACO-homologated. In addition, the Primetime Viper, which is a Speed GT car, is still ~100lb heavy, and was at least 200lb heavy when they started (though it may have been as much as 400lb to start with).

[johntt]

I've just read the article where they are testing the various Grand-Am cars (the differences are negligable between those prototurds btw) and it reads more as a highly biased advert for Grand-Am.

It also includes a blatently false piece of information; 'Acura is leaving the ALMS'; WRONG Fernandez Racing is leaving the ALMS with their P2 Acura. De Ferran Motorsports is expanding to two P1 cars in the ALMS and Highcrift are staying put with their Acura P1 as well

[isynge]

As a matter of interest, and really just before I get home to read it myself - what's the byline on the Autosport Grand Am article?

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by johntt

It also includes a blatently false piece of information; 'Acura is leaving the ALMS'; WRONG Fernandez Racing is leaving the ALMS with their P2 Acura. De Ferran Motorsports is expanding to two P1 cars in the ALMS and Highcrift are staying put with their Acura P1 as well

and so, the propaganda war continues!

[johntt]

Originally Posted by isynge

As a matter of interest, and really just before I get home to read it myself - what's the byline on the Autosport Grand Am article?

"Grand-Am brings NASCAR philosophy to sports-prototype racing. Ben Collins tries five out"

[Speed-King]

AFAIK the DeFerran two car idea is a "in a perfect world"-thing. As I understand it, their focus is on an Indycar-campaign, but they want to do ALMS as well, if possible.

[johntt]

I am aware that Acura are withdrawing works support, but there has been no announcement of the P1 cars themselves going away.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by johntt

I've just read the article where they are testing the various Grand-Am cars (the differences are negligable between those prototurds btw) and it reads more as a highly biased advert for Grand-Am.

Yes, a nice piece of Grand Am propaganda. I wouldn't be surprised if it was an all expenses paid trip...