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Old 22 Feb 2014, 14:01 (Ref:3371002)   #1
el_cat
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el_cat should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
107% ruling?

Does it still exist?

Just wondering, as judging by current testing progress there may be some cars that struggle to make the cut.

I know its only testing and its hard to call, but Rosberg's lap today would have set the 107% marker at 1m39.813s. Thats quicker than both Red Bulls, Caterhams, Marussias, Vergne, Sutil and Grosjean have all managed so far.

Obviously thats not a true comparison (its only testing, different days and different programs etc), but is there a genuine worry that some cars might not get up to speed to make the grid? At what point do they invoke force majeure?

I would imagine that ultimately, providing the next test runs a bit more smoothly this won't become an issue. But I can see the field becoming incredibly strung out pretty early in Oz.
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 14:04 (Ref:3371004)   #2
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Yep, still being used, but barely ever enforced these days. I remember them turning blind eyes to it with the HRT's and whatnot.

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Old 22 Feb 2014, 15:41 (Ref:3371022)   #3
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Hawkwood should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHawkwood should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Don't all the teams have to agree to allow a driver to race if he's outside the 107%?
They let the HRTs race as they were never going to be a threat, but if a Red Bull happened to stray outside the line, would Mercedes, McLaren etc allow them back in?

Though if they were down there on genuine pace then they'd be no threat either I suppose.

Last edited by Hawkwood; 22 Feb 2014 at 15:59. Reason: forgot punctuation
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 15:55 (Ref:3371026)   #4
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if they cant get within 107% during Q or their practice sessions i really do hope one of the other team blocks them from entering the race (if that is indeed the procedure).

i would be curious to see how that scenario plays out!
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 16:13 (Ref:3371031)   #5
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Originally Posted by Hawkwood View Post
Don't all the teams have to agree to allow a driver to race if he's outside the 107%?
They let the HRTs race as they were never going to be a threat, but if a Red Bull happened to stray outside the line, would Mercedes, McLaren etc allow them back in?

Though if they were down there on genuine pace then they'd be no threat either I suppose.
Of course they would let them in. Think about what might happen if the roles were reversed, would Mercedes or McLaren want to be blocked by, say Red Bull, if, for example, their number one driver suffered a mechanical failure just as they were going out to qualify, or crashed without posting a time.

The answer is simple; everybody scratches everybody else's back just in case they end up in the same situation. This is why there are so few protests made by teams; they don't want the competitors doing it to them.
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 16:19 (Ref:3371032)   #6
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imo they would have to press their advantage and with double points looming at seasons end i dont know if they find a compromise.

Ferrari at Indy 2005 comes to mind. Ferrari had no chance at a title but placed a farcical win and the face saving propaganda that came with it of greater importance then compromise.
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 18:09 (Ref:3371064)   #7
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kipper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridkipper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Don't all the teams have to agree to allow a driver to race if he's outside the 107%?
The decision rests with the stewards. In essence, if a driver has been reasonable quick outside of qualifying they have a chance of being let into the race. If they have been consistently slow throughout the meeting (e.g. HRT at the 2011 and 2012 Australian races), then they're out.
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 20:55 (Ref:3371113)   #8
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wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It might be a case of who you look after on your way up as you might meet them on the way down.
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 21:44 (Ref:3371124)   #9
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Yes it is still there. However it has always been applied sensibly and appropriately. Much to the confusion of some.
So if reliability intervenes then they'll start.
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 22:30 (Ref:3371130)   #10
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TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It will all be much closer, come Melbourne. Much less close than in recent years though.

Fred Drift: I am really looking forward to how the new technology works out and how the drivers cope with the very different cars. However I am a bit worried that the spread of performance will be much greater than we are used to and reliability will be like going back to the good old days.
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Old 22 Feb 2014, 22:36 (Ref:3371132)   #11
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As far as I'm aware, it's there to force out teams and drivers which are too slow in themselves, thus explaining the blind eye turning. And if the teams are too slow to get within 107%, you have to say that's pretty slow for Formula 1. Remember the hapless Vincenzo Sospiri in the 1997 Lola?
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Old 23 Feb 2014, 08:13 (Ref:3371175)   #12
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If you went back to earlier decades you would find that in decades past the differences in lap times were much greater than 107%. The 107% rule was introduced relatively recently because there were plenty of entries, and one way of weeding tail enders out was too disqualify those who didn't demonstrate a particular level of competitiveness.

In the 1967 Race of Champions (pick a race from nearly 50 years ago) Dan Gurney won heat two but was more than 49 seconds in front of fifteenth place...In a ten lap race....
but that average time is well within 107% of the pole position (1min32.2) and the fastest lap (1min 32.6).
107% is actually quite generous in cars with similar power/ engine outputs
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Old 23 Feb 2014, 09:41 (Ref:3371201)   #13
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TimRTC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Is there any scope for black flagging a driver during a race for simply being too slow (a la Indycar)?
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Old 23 Feb 2014, 12:20 (Ref:3371229)   #14
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Only time that happened was when Al Pease was blackflagged during the 1969 Canadian GP, as he was hopelessly off the pace

I think one of the discressions in the 107% rule is if you had shown to have been within the 107% in any other session.
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Old 23 Feb 2014, 16:02 (Ref:3371280)   #15
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We're currently looking at about half of the teams not being within the 107% rule in Melbourne, and that's assuming that they actually manage to put a decent lap together!

Caterham and Marussia had no problems getting within the 107% rule in 2013, but they did have ancient V8 engines that were very very reliable.
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Old 23 Feb 2014, 16:10 (Ref:3371285)   #16
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Only time that happened was when Al Pease was blackflagged during the 1969 Canadian GP, as he was hopelessly off the pace

I think one of the discressions in the 107% rule is if you had shown to have been within the 107% in any other session.
Which kind of takes me back to the original point - on current form the Renault teams might not be able to achieve even that.

My understanding is that "discretion" can be applied when a car has an issue in qualifying but its clear to all that the car can lap at 107%. I'm not sure that will be the case come Melbourne.

The final test will be interesting to see how much more pace the Renaults can extract
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