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Old 14 Jan 2005, 10:28 (Ref:1200699)   #51
Glen
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Wider cars does not equal better racing! How do you work that one out?
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 10:42 (Ref:1200709)   #52
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Oops - I meant wider cars DO equal better racing ?

Or, to be clear - narrow cars do not harm racing at all. In fact, quite the opposite, since a lot of overtaking happens through chicanes and other narrow spaces - narrow cars are better.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 10:48 (Ref:1200720)   #53
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Gabrio should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGabrio should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Great car. Very neat and tidy design. Great step-up with Michelins (at least 1,5 sec) if JV gets serious about fitness and Massa understands that the track is the grey one and not the green one it could be the best year ever for Sauber.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 10:58 (Ref:1200729)   #54
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1200Datto27 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
It looks like they have run the exhaust headers forwards of the engine, instead of the traditional rearwards, as it looks like that exit is in front of the heads.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 11:44 (Ref:1200770)   #55
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Originally Posted by Glen
Oops - I meant wider cars DO equal better racing ?

Or, to be clear - narrow cars do not harm racing at all. In fact, quite the opposite, since a lot of overtaking happens through chicanes and other narrow spaces - narrow cars are better.
Yes they do.
When teams used to run wider cars they had to run less wing.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 11:59 (Ref:1200782)   #56
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
That just doesn't follow - the whole aerodynamic package is totally different year-on-year. Plus, in any case, running more wing promotes slipstreaming.

If you fancy wide cars because you think they look better or because you hanker after the "good old days", then fine - but it simply isn't accurate to say that wide cars=better racing - the causes are far, far more involved than that!
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 12:05 (Ref:1200790)   #57
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enemy-ace should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Check out Saubers front wing treatment for their test. Interesting!
http://www.f1racing.net/en/photolarg...614&catID=1574
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 12:25 (Ref:1200814)   #58
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shiny side up! should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Try Hard
Oh and to help out Shiny Side Up, it's a single keel
Thanks Ed!!

That wing pic is pretty cool. If it works well, I'm sure we'll see it on some other cars shortly!
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 14:17 (Ref:1200905)   #59
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Thanks for that technical insight Ed
I think reading it my hunch was sort of correct...

I think that kind of front wing has been done before, by Ferrari or McLaren...

Last edited by pirenzo; 14 Jan 2005 at 14:18.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 14:49 (Ref:1200926)   #60
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Logrence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That's a deeply sexy racing car, so long as they don't use that vicious-looking front wing treatment.

Nice to see they're trying, for once. I used to think they just slept at the Sauber factory all day long.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 15:08 (Ref:1200939)   #61
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Originally Posted by Glen
That just doesn't follow - the whole aerodynamic package is totally different year-on-year. Plus, in any case, running more wing promotes slipstreaming.

If you fancy wide cars because you think they look better or because you hanker after the "good old days", then fine - but it simply isn't accurate to say that wide cars=better racing - the causes are far, far more involved than that!
I don't think so Glen.
When the cars for 1998 were being tested I read an article which had an interview with Pat Symmonds that the teams could now afford to run far more wing at all tracks as the cars were narrower therefore created less drag. They also had to run more wing as they lost grip from having the grooved tyres, so they ran more wing to compensate for the loss of mechanical grip.

I'll try and find the Pat Symmonds Autosport article I have from Jan 1998 or so...

Last edited by Sodemo; 14 Jan 2005 at 15:10.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 15:23 (Ref:1200944)   #62
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
No need to go to that bother, Monster - I'm not disputing that they might run more wing with a narrow car. I just don't think that (wing level) has a completely linear relationship with "racing". More wing gives you a bigger hole in the air - which could mean more or less overtaking, depending on the situation.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 16:58 (Ref:1200999)   #63
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Try Hard should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by pirenzo
Thanks for that technical insight Ed
I think reading it my hunch was sort of correct...

I think that kind of front wing has been done before, by Ferrari or McLaren...
Prost ran it before Monaco '01 I believe
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 17:05 (Ref:1201002)   #64
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Thanks. I knew it had been done, I was trying to remember which car(s) I saw it on.

Last edited by pirenzo; 14 Jan 2005 at 17:06.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 17:11 (Ref:1201005)   #65
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Hmmm, seems Sauber were not displaying the entire package ... I haven't seen it yet, but here's what is being reported:

......" The new Sauber C24 has run for the first time at Jerez – with a strikingly original front wing.

The wing, which was designed using the team’s new windtunnel, was not on the car when it was unveiled on Thursday afternoon .... "
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 17:15 (Ref:1201007)   #66
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ralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Nice looking car..... hope its fast...
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 17:48 (Ref:1201020)   #67
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Silk Cut Jaguar should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSilk Cut Jaguar should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Photo of the new nose...

http://www.f1racing.net/en/photolarge.php?photoID=38615

Now who would have predicted something like that?! Looks like Sauber have been doing some amazing work down in Hinwil.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 19:28 (Ref:1201090)   #68
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Hazard should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridHazard should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridHazard should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It's not quite as pretty now though.

I think all the teams will be trying out a few aerodymamic pieces to see if they can suddenly grab back some downforce.

Some may succeed, some may fail
Some may be pretty - most will be ugly

Some may not make it even to race one.
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Old 14 Jan 2005, 19:35 (Ref:1201096)   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen
No need to go to that bother, Monster - I'm not disputing that they might run more wing with a narrow car. I just don't think that (wing level) has a completely linear relationship with "racing". More wing gives you a bigger hole in the air - which could mean more or less overtaking, depending on the situation.
Again I would question that.

OK take two tracks, Monza and Mangy-Cours. Now Monza requires extreme low downforce wheras France requires medium/higher downforce.
If two cars are following one another they will find it much harder to follow at Mangy Cours, as the wing level is much higher.

Estoril corner at Mangy Cours and the Parabolica at Monza are similar - ish corners, both are high speed, but the drivers always comment how difficult it is to follow through that very corner. Its the same with the final turn at Barcelona, too much wing is being run. Cars find it much easier to follow through the Parabolica than Estoril corner as the hole in the air is smaller.

Last edited by Sodemo; 14 Jan 2005 at 19:38.
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Old 1 Feb 2005, 18:35 (Ref:1214851)   #70
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jhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I wanted to bring up something that I saw over the weekend. Three teams tested recently at Barcelona. Ferrari and Sauber tested all three days with McLaren there the first day. The new Sauber set the slowest time all three days. It was roughly 1.5 seconds shy of the F2004M (assuming this is the benchmark for Melbourne) on day one and over 2 seconds shy the next two days. I know it's just testing, but that seems like a lot. Anyone have any thoughts?

January 30th

Luca Badoer, Ferrari F2004, 1m15.410s - 28 laps
Michael Schumacher, Ferrari F2004M, 1m15.975s - 69 laps
Jacques Villeneuve, Sauber C24, 1m18.117s - 80 laps

January 29th

Luca Badoer, Ferrari F2004, 1m15.668s - 93 laps
Michael Schumacher, Ferrari F2004M, 1m15.902s - 88 laps
Felipe Massa, Sauber C24, 1m18.293s - 128 laps

January 28th

Luca Badoer, Ferrari F2004, 1m15.899s - 75 laps
Michael Schumacher, Ferrari F2004M, 1m16.002s - 57 laps
Juan Pablo Montoya, McLaren MP4-20, 1m16.536s - 72 laps
Felipe Massa, Sauber C24, 1m17.470s - 91 laps

All times courtesy of www.crash.net

Last edited by jhansen; 1 Feb 2005 at 18:37.
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Old 1 Feb 2005, 19:05 (Ref:1214876)   #71
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Giando should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Maybe... a "problem" related to the two drivers? ;-)
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Old 1 Feb 2005, 19:13 (Ref:1214880)   #72
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speedbump should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Who knows what there testing.
Are they running light or heavy ?
Trying for good lap time or just puting mileage on the car ?
I'm not to worried but do wonder.
It is an interesting observation.
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Old 2 Feb 2005, 09:14 (Ref:1215284)   #73
Glen
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Sauber also did more laps - it is unlikely that within that programme they would not have had at least some laps with an eye on qualifying practice - to find a benchmark quick time. I would expect them to be somewhat slower anyway, so it doesn't seem surprising to me - I'm afraid a nice curvy shape and an appealing paint job do not make a quick car.

It is only testing though...

Last edited by Glen; 2 Feb 2005 at 09:15.
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Old 2 Feb 2005, 11:15 (Ref:1215382)   #74
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Well, according to Autosprint the team admits that they have problems in re-finding the (due-to-the-new-rules)lost front downforce.
And in fact they're the only team with a traditional front wing, just raised of 5 cm.

(The third element seen in the early tests didn't work very well)

I expect to see a new front wing very soon on the Sauber
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Old 2 Feb 2005, 11:41 (Ref:1215401)   #75
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Sauber's problem will always be finding solutions as they go along - purely because of lack of resources. They cannot afford to test as much as the other teams - even if they get the car right during this testing phase they will inevitably fall behind as the season progresses.

They also don't have the budget to run a third car, despite being eligible - another opportunity that they will have to miss.
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