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Old 15 Dec 2017, 11:21 (Ref:3787224)   #16
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Nobody is saying that F1 and motorsport in general shouldn't try to attract women into the business. What most people with my views believe is that they shouldn't need to be dressed in figure hugging clothes that are designed purely to exaggerate their female attributes. I mean, you didn't and still don't see Claire Williams parading around in Spandex/Lycra, and she is the top women in F1.

The grid/podium girls are there mainly for males to ogle at, just as were/are the girls used to drape across the bonnets of cars at motor shows. And, in my opinion, it has no place in modern society; in fact, it never did have a place. It is just demeaning to women.
Oh, so now we are saying that women should be subject to dress standards in our new "modern society" or just when attending racing or car shows!

Are you going to set up a little fashion police squad at the gate and make the girls all parade in front of a committee to see that they are decently enough dressed to attend? You think that wouldn't be demeaning to women?

Better yet just ban women from attending races because the men may look at them!

My what a nice little police state we are proposing.

Maybe the politically correct want to live in it, I for one don't.
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Old 15 Dec 2017, 11:22 (Ref:3787225)   #17
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Glamour attracts glamour, and well presented women bring in more women, all of which is good for motor racing.
ah, mansplaining. wondered when that would crop up. thank you for telling women how we should feel.

fwiw, i, and none of my female friends working in the sport got into it because of grid girls. they make us feel incredibly uncomfortable. especially those of us given men's team clothing or ill-fitting "women's" stuff...

look, i'm not a bra burner or a feminist. i really dislike the hardcore twitter campaigns out there, and i'm not a member nor a supporter of d2bd, like quite a few women in the sport. let's just get that out of the way.

you want to look at hot women with your sport, we get it. but hot women can buy tickets like the rest of us, or work in the sport like the rest of us.

i have no beef with hospitality and marketing staff, doing a job other than standing around handing out leaflets and freebies in lycra or any other generic inappropriate outfit. there's plenty of hot women working in marketing, as much as there's hot women working in public relations, and as engineers and spanners.

it's kind of like the "rock test" for guys unsure of how to conduct themselves around women to avoid harassment accusations. if you wouldn't employ a guy in a similar outfit to do a job, don't ask a woman to do it either.

just a side "cool story, bro", but the only place where i have ever had men discuss my appearance close enough that i could hear them was at the australian grand prix whilst spectating.
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Old 15 Dec 2017, 11:53 (Ref:3787235)   #18
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ah, mansplaining. wondered when that would crop up. thank you for telling women how we should feel.

fwiw, i, and none of my female friends working in the sport got into it because of grid girls. they make us feel incredibly uncomfortable. especially those of us given men's team clothing or ill-fitting "women's" stuff...

look, i'm not a bra burner or a feminist. i really dislike the hardcore twitter campaigns out there, and i'm not a member nor a supporter of d2bd, like quite a few women in the sport. let's just get that out of the way.

you want to look at hot women with your sport, we get it. but hot women can buy tickets like the rest of us, or work in the sport like the rest of us.

i have no beef with hospitality and marketing staff, doing a job other than standing around handing out leaflets and freebies in lycra or any other generic inappropriate outfit. there's plenty of hot women working in marketing, as much as there's hot women working in public relations, and as engineers and spanners.

it's kind of like the "rock test" for guys unsure of how to conduct themselves around women to avoid harassment accusations. if you wouldn't employ a guy in a similar outfit to do a job, don't ask a woman to do it either.

just a side "cool story, bro", but the only place where i have ever had men discuss my appearance close enough that i could hear them was at the australian grand prix whilst spectating.
Thanks for the mansplaining dig.

I just think that peoples freedoms should not be taken away by others in the name of whatever.

Your "rock test", in my book is just criminal assault by the perpetrator, and should be dealt with as such.

"Cool story bro", doubtless they were fat, ugly, drunk, and definitely stupid, so sub-human really in my book. Still, useless as the sentiment is, I apologize for the behavior of the idiots of my sex.

Feminism quite bluntly makes me sick, when I see how men often treat women, I know where it comes from. I have no answer.

Last edited by wnut; 15 Dec 2017 at 11:59.
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Old 15 Dec 2017, 12:05 (Ref:3787240)   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Nobody is saying that F1 and motorsport in general shouldn't try to attract women into the business. What most people with my views believe is that they shouldn't need to be dressed in figure hugging clothes that are designed purely to exaggerate their female attributes. I mean, you didn't and still don't see Claire Williams parading around in Spandex/Lycra, and she is the top women in F1.

The grid/podium girls are there mainly for males to ogle at, just as were/are the girls used to drape across the bonnets of cars at motor shows. And, in my opinion, it has no place in modern society; in fact, it never did have a place. It is just demeaning to women.
That's because it was thought and to an extent still is, which is why they are still used in promotion, that grid girls or girls draped across car bonnets, make the product sexy and exciting, with the target market being male.

Indeed in this day and age it has been argued it is demeaning. Bearing that in mind but looking at this from a marketing point of view, is the continued use of grid girls or girls draped across car bonnets still an effective marketing tool, or is it now tired and outdated, especially when the environment is playing such a big part in the automotive industry?
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Old 15 Dec 2017, 12:17 (Ref:3787243)   #20
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As long as the women involved actually want to be there and aren't being coerced in some way, then I dont see a problem with it. However knowing which way the wind is blowing on the subject of "women in the media" (The Sun being strongarmed into dropping Page 3, and current sexual celeb assault revelations) I can see the practice of having grid girls being dropped pretty soon. Not that it would bother me, however i'd feel sorry for the women who lose out on paid work.
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Old 15 Dec 2017, 12:39 (Ref:3787248)   #21
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WEC Lemans Pre-Grid 2017

I think there are 4 women including Maria S in the photo, such inclusion.

Guess she should not be there as she is purely promotional in this setting.

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Old 15 Dec 2017, 13:17 (Ref:3787251)   #22
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Thanks for the mansplaining dig.

I just think that peoples freedoms should not be taken away by others in the name of whatever.

Your "rock test", in my book is just criminal assault by the perpetrator, and should be dealt with as such.

"Cool story bro", doubtless they were fat, ugly, drunk, and definitely stupid, so sub-human really in my book. Still, useless as the sentiment is, I apologize for the behavior of the idiots of my sex.

Feminism quite bluntly makes me sick, when I see how men often treat women, I know where it comes from. I have no answer.
you earnt it

you need to re-read the rock test. it's a half-mickey take, half-serious thing. the concept is basically that if a man is struggling to know how to communicate and relate to a female worker for fear of being misinterpreted, they should ask themselves how they'd speak to "the rock" (massive hench ex-wrestler, now actor and all-round dude that people from both genders respect). the male response to the concept is often a bit of a joke about how they'd flirt with the rock as well, but that reaction in itself is pretty telling.

i was going to say the "cool story" guys were in fact average guys, but that reinforces the notion that attractive people are more entitled to judge the looks of others... it would have been a crappy thing to do even if they were male models. based on the grid girl and promotional model culture in said sport in said country i wasn't surprised to hear it, let's put it that way.

the thing is, grid girls and promotional models are a symptom of toxic masculinity. it's kind of a response to feminism in the same way that turning feminism from what it actually is - the drive for equal rights and equal treatment for women - into something that promotes women as being better than men and deserving positive discrimination to demonise us.

the reason feminists get a bit cross is that whilst they say "look at this crap attitude society has specifically directed at women", a vocal male reaction is "not all men" or "that's not true, i'll mansplain why". men don't listen to women's experiences, they wait till we're finished and explain why we're wrong, or why what we've experienced doesn't happen, isn't true or worse, we just got the wrong end of the stick.

something you hear a lot is men having to rationalise stuff in the "my female relative" context - a guy would leer at a grid girl, comment on her appearance and make lewd remarks but wouldn't want other men to do the same to his daughter or sister.

this is going way off topic, but it's inextricably linked to the thread - there's some absolutely incredible female minds out there who are an asset to any company they work for. we need to make them feel welcome into the sport for its own sake.

i'm not trying to be the fun police, or take away anything. i'm just really not here for men justifying sexist nonsense because they think it benefits everyone when really it just benefits men and the couple of women they're perving at.
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Old 15 Dec 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3787265)   #23
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it's kind of like the "rock test" for guys unsure of how to conduct themselves around women to avoid harassment accusations.
Thanks for that link. That was a good article.

Can I make a suggestion? (Feel free to ignore) I know that this topic ultimately was kicked off as to how F1 might run events in the future (not really "rules" related, but still sort of on-topic). But should this be a topic/thread of it's own? Especially if the discussion continues? I think it is maybe off-topic (for this thread), but a good topic for the forum.

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Old 15 Dec 2017, 14:14 (Ref:3787268)   #24
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Thanks for that link. That was a good article.

Can I make a suggestion? (Feel free to ignore) I know that this topic ultimately was kicked off as to how F1 might run events in the future (not really "rules" related, but still sort of on-topic). But should this be a topic/thread of it's own? Especially if the discussion continues? I think it is maybe off-topic (for this thread), but a good topic for the forum.

Richard
I was going to suggest the exact same thing.
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Old 15 Dec 2017, 14:24 (Ref:3787271)   #25
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have other series not stopped the practice of girls on the grid already? maybe WEC? cant remember which series though.
WEC said it did but it didn't really. There are now grid people (men) in white jeans and a WEC T-Shirt holding flags at the front of the grid. About 4-5 of them. That's not really a problem, as everyones dressed casual and there's men and women. The grid girls holding flags are indeed gone. But in the paddock there is still advertising girls and all that lycra nonsense. And girls in parc ferme where the cars park, looking very awkward and out of place. So WEC took a tiny step forward with it, but nothing significant.

IMO - grid girls should go. They add absolutely nothing what so ever to the show or sport. And I'd make an argument that glamour is possibly the worst thing that could happen to F1 anyway. Give me a half dirty Sebring tent any day over the glamour of F1.

If you like grid girls, fine. That's your opinion and it's fine to say "I like this". But don't try and explain it away with absolute ******** like "models need jobs too". Aye, so do male models, but if we put men in lycra on the grid then people would lose their minds. It's fine to like it, but don't try and justify it with half baked reasons. Just man up (oh the irony) and admit you like it because you like it. But don't worry, they might find a husband from it. Dear lord.
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Old 15 Dec 2017, 14:26 (Ref:3787272)   #26
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
The grid/podium girls are there mainly for males to ogle at, just as were/are the girls used to drape across the bonnets of cars at motor shows. And, in my opinion, it has no place in modern society; in fact, it never did have a place. It is just demeaning to women.
Well summed up, in a short paragraph.
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Old 16 Dec 2017, 12:27 (Ref:3787456)   #27
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IMO - grid girls should go. They add absolutely nothing what so ever to the show or sport. And I'd make an argument that glamour is possibly the worst thing that could happen to F1 anyway. Give me a half dirty Sebring tent any day over the glamour of F1.
Whilst in the air today, it came to my mind that the aviation industry is an example of where the stereotypical 'trolley-dolley' has moved on massively and cabin crew (on the whole) are given the respect they deserve for doing so much more than look pretty.

So my thought is, rather than simply asking if grid girls should stay in F1 - the whole role of an individual on the grid should be reviewed.
Perhaps the situation would be more correct if the people were used for much more within the team(s), including being brand ambassadors, having a hospitality and service role, and that gender was irrelevant?

If we had an insight into the behind the scenes work (as airlines have done), and saw that they also had a wider contribution to the running of an event, then perhaps the job would be seen as so much more than just being employed for your body?
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Old 16 Dec 2017, 12:41 (Ref:3787459)   #28
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at one event last season, formula e used young karters from the country (was it the new york rounds?) as grid people, overalls and all. that seemed like a far more positive solution than a bunch of girls in skirts.

meanwhile, thousands of races manage to organise a grid fine without somebody standing there with a sign.

going to split the thread out as suggested to allow the conversation to continue.
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Old 16 Dec 2017, 12:51 (Ref:3787461)   #29
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meanwhile, thousands of races manage to organise a grid fine without somebody standing there with a sign.
A recent BBC podcast described the early grid girls as being required as the drivers were on their own once they left pitlane. Clearly there was a reason for their existence back then, that is not relevant today. Hence why I wonder if there is a different role that could be fulfilled, which also provides a focal person at the front of the grid box?
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Old 16 Dec 2017, 12:54 (Ref:3787462)   #30
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A recent BBC podcast described the early grid girls as being required as the drivers were on their own once they left pitlane. Clearly there was a reason for their existence back then, that is not relevant today. Hence why I wonder if there is a different role that could be fulfilled, which also provides a focal person at the front of the grid box?
Make that person a fan. Run competitions, 20 people for every race get VIP treatment and get to be the grid person. Imagine the positive PR for that.

Makeup and lycra is not a requirement either.
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