[BTCC] Round 5 - Croft, 1st June 2008

[awrb]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Jackson does indeed seem to have gotten fed up with playing nice and resorting to running other off the track instead as well. Too sad really, but I guess the BTCC fosters drivers into that behaviour.

I wouldn't say the BTCC 'fosters' driving like that, I think that's a totally unfair comment. Look at alot of drivers who have raced in the BTCC for a while: Turkington, Chilton, Thompson, Muller, Collard, etc. None of these are dirty.

OK, you've got Plato and, to a lesser extent, Neal and Jackson. But I think that really is it. I don't think the driving is worse in this series than in any other.

If you put these three in hte WTCC, would that then be a breeding gorund for bad driving?

[safc_fan89]

Oh come on...Collard's driving in 2006 was a disgrace.

I was at Croft on Sunday, and I didn't realise just how much contact Jackson made with everyone in the third race. It was dry by then so there's no excuse.

As for Mike Jordan giving his position back...he would have got a penalty if he hadn't because he had no intention of making the corner. I don't see why he should get praise for that.

Adam Jones on Collard...Jones shoved Collard, he didn't pass Collard. Thee's a difference.

[Aunt Sally]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Oh come on...Collard's driving in 2006 was a disgrace.

It is now 2008! If Collard is as bad as you say, why did he not take Neal off in race two? He had more than enough opportunities to do so!

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

I was at Croft on Sunday, and I didn't realise just how much contact Jackson made with everyone in the third race. It was dry by then so there's no excuse.

Surely not? Matt Jackson? The driver that has the sun shine out of his rear-end? I think he has been taking lessons from Jason Plato...

Not watched him in the other races this year then?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Why? That was a stupid move from Jackson. Oh let me guess, it's because he hit a diesel isn't it?

You got it! :P

[Craner Curves]

It's hardly Turner's fault he's driving a diesel. That's just pathetic.

[Matt]

I'm allowed to hate something for that reason. It's kind of why some people hate certain sports teams. Your favourite player could go over to the other team, and now you will dislike him. I just HATE diesels. Well, in racing.

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by Matt

I'm allowed to hate something for that reason. It's kind of why some people hate certain sports teams. Your favourite player could go over to the other team, and now you will dislike him. I just HATE diesels. Well, in racing.

Seems fair enough. Cheering cos a team you don't like gets punted out - that's what sports about.

But as long as you're open to the fact the move wasn't on etc. and don't defend the manouvre just because you disliked the unlucky victim.

I've already stated my bias - I own a diesel Leon, I like the racing diesel Leons, and Mat Jackson's move in race three was plain pants!

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Hazard

Seems fair enough. Cheering cos a team you don't like gets punted out - that's what sports about.

But as long as you're open to the fact the move wasn't on etc. and don't defend the manouvre just because you disliked the unlucky victim.

I've already stated my bias - I own a diesel Leon, I like the racing diesel Leons, and Mat Jackson's move in race three was plain pants!

I'm not defending the maneuver at all, he NEVER had that pass made, haha.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by awrb

I wouldn't say the BTCC 'fosters' driving like that, I think that's a totally unfair comment. Look at alot of drivers who have raced in the BTCC for a while: Turkington, Chilton, Thompson, Muller, Collard, etc. None of these are dirty.

And those on that list that can seem to be leaving BTCC. Additionally I would scratch Turkington of that list.

OK, you've got Plato and, to a lesser extent, Neal and Jackson. But I think that really is it.

Well, lets just say my list is a lot longer.

I don't think the driving is worse in this series than in any other.

How many other TCC do you actually follow regularely? I see most every race in BTCC, WTCC & STCC (and DTM) and BTCC has by far the most bump and pass/put others in the gravel action taking place. Hell, even Junior TCC (similar to the BTCC support clios) here in Sweden in general drive more well behaved then BTCC drivers. That sais a lot IMO.

If you put these three in hte WTCC, would that then be a breeding gorund for bad driving?

I assume they would get hit with penalties in next to every race until they learn how to drive responsibly. And I think that learning curve would be very quick, because this is not a driver problem, it's a "steward not giving penalties for anything" problem.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

As for Mike Jordan giving his position back...he would have got a penalty if he hadn't because he had no intention of making the corner.

Please refer to this penalty being given out in the last 2 years. I regularely see people passing and/or keeping position purely by cutting corners in BTCC, so if your theory holds true you should have plenty of such penalties to list.

Meanwhile, Ill continue to praise Jordan taking the moral high ground and doing the right thing in a situation that regularely is not penalized in BTCC.

I also don't agree at all on him not trying to make the corner, it's just that in BTCC they like to put big obstacles right next to the racing line to ensure massive carnage in case a driver accidentally get it wrong. Most other TCC try to avoid that as much as possible and instead actually hand out drivethroughs/grid drops when people deliberatley cut corners.

So if Jordan would have pushed the issue, chances are very high that either he or Gio would have crashed right into one of those obstacles ending their race and likely bringing out the safety car.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Please refer to this penalty being given out in the last 2 years. I regularely see people passing and/or keeping position purely by cutting corners in BTCC, so if your theory holds true you should have plenty of such penalties to list.

Meanwhile, Ill continue to praise Jordan taking the moral high ground and doing the right thing in a situation that regularely is not penalized in BTCC.

I also don't agree at all on him not trying to make the corner, it's just that in BTCC they like to put big obstacles right next to the racing line to ensure massive carnage in case a driver accidentally get it wrong. Most other TCC try to avoid that as much as possible and instead actually hand out drivethroughs/grid drops when people deliberatley cut corners.

So if Jordan would have pushed the issue, chances are very high that either he or Gio would have crashed right into one of those obstacles ending their race and likely bringing out the safety car.

You know what, your bias against the BTCC is getting ridiculous.

They do penalize the drivers for straightlining chicanes etc and thats why drivers reverse the moves when they have done them by mistake. Why else do you think the drivers themselves would undo the move? Out of the goodness of their hearts??

Watch a BTCC round at Oulton Park. Every time a driver makes a mistake and straightlines the chicane he drops back and reverses the move. Why? Because they are told to do so on the radio by race control.

And the BTCC dont put obstacles on the corners. The BTCC don't construct or change the circuits and dont decide where tyre barriers and such things go. Thats the MSA.

If you are going to keep having a pop at the BTCC then at least get your facts straight before you make yourself look even more foolish.

[Craner Curves]

I'm getting tired of your trolling stedevil. The BTCC put big obstacles next to the chicanes to create carnage if somebody misses the corner?!? Sheesh.

[Motorsportgirli]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

I'm getting tired of your trolling stedevil. The BTCC put big obstacles next to the chicanes to create carnage if somebody misses the corner?!? Sheesh.

They are also there to protect us dumb marshals Stedevil, oh and it seems you are as popular in here as you are in the marshals forum. The tyres at the chicane at croft are there to stop straightlining which would bring the cars into very close proximity of the marshals post. They are there for a reason!

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Why else do you think the drivers themselves would undo the move?

I did think Jordan did it by himself. I had no idea he was told to do so.

And the BTCC dont put obstacles on the corners. The BTCC don't construct or change the circuits and dont decide where tyre barriers and such things go. Thats the MSA.

I apologize for not knowing exactly whom to blame. I really did think BTCC had a say in it. Eg last year the drivers in WTCC unanimously complained and had dangerous tire barriers removed. That it technically might not be under direct WTCC controll I don't think prevented them to support the drivers in such a case.

[Icebaby]

I agree with one point in that the rules for the BTCC are Inconsistant and in my view at times Implemented for TV/Championship purposes, driving stadards are set to reduce further following no action against some moves commited at Croft leaving drivers with the mind set its ok to take out another driver. If the rules are Inconsistant and there are plenty of cases over the years where this questioned you do have to at times question the Integrity of the sport itself. Look at the BTCC too seriously and you would be dissapointed but take it for what it is and its a good one to follow.

Attacking Marshalls is quite poor and I dont agree with this on any level.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by stedevil

And those on that list that can seem to be leaving BTCC. Additionally I would scratch Turkington of that list.

Well, lets just say my list is a lot longer.

If you are not including Turkington on your 'clean drivers list', because of his defensive/blocking driving style, would you include any of the following on your list?

Fabrizio Giovanardi, Tom Onslow-Cole, Darren Turner, Martyn Bell, Adam Jones, Matt Allison, Gareth Howell, Jason Hughes, Gordon Shedden, Mike Jordan, Erkut Kizilirmak.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Motorsportgirli

They are also there to protect us dumb marshals

I think, if you calm down and reread what I actually write in a few days, you will find that I neither group all marshalls togheter in 1 pile nor call any of you dumb.

The tyres at the chicane at croft are there to stop straightlining which would bring the cars into very close proximity of the marshals post.

I've already specified a better way to protect against deliberate straight lining. It works in WTCC and STCC, why not in BTCC?

Also, protecting the marshals (as well as drivers) is better done at the marshals posts than by putting obstacles almost in the middle of the track. No? As an example, how many times did we have cars completely totalled by running into tire barriers right nex to the racing line or ON the racing line (after being moved by a previous car) in BTCC last year? IIRC no less then 3.
If you NEED a tirebarrier right next to the track to make it safe for marshalls, isn't the problem really an ill planed/placed mashal post? Surely, with some thinking & planning, the track owners can come up with a solution that is safer for marshal and driver alike.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If you are not including Turkington on your 'clean drivers list', because of his defensive/blocking driving style,

I don't mind a defensive/blocking driving style. I do mind people deliberately chosing a racing line that leaves no racing room for somebody on the outside of the corner when they are well and truly along side already. But I do think you already knew this answer and are just trying to bring up an old disscusion that was extensivly discussed in the past.

[touring fan01]

tell me Stedevil. How many BTCC races have you actually attended? How many UK race tracks have you actually gone to?

[stedevil]

I presume as many as you have visited STCC tracks and races? Travel time and costs are important factors for choosing which events to attend.

[mattt]

the thing is though are we so blatently anti-STCC

as you are anti-BTCC

[stedevil]

I don't think Im unnunaced anti-BTCC. Eg I do think you have good racing tracks (in many cases better than STCC), many good drivers and a general big and varied starting fields. You also seem to have stable rules as in not constantly changing weight penalties due to brand etc. I also think BTCC has a better way of handling reverse grid races then eg WTCC and prefer the 3 BTCC race format over the WTCC 2 race format (though my own favourite for the best would be a 1 sprint & 1 longer race format).

But I do think I have valid point in the things I do complain about, most notably no penalties for bad driver behaviour (punting people off etc) and safety (eg unnecessary and dangerous tire barriers littering the edge of the track when smarter and more safe alternatives are cheap and easy to accomplish).

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

I presume as many as you have visited STCC tracks and races? Travel time and costs are important factors for choosing which events to attend.

Nope. I never visited any and thats exactly why I dont pretend to be an expert on the STC and why I dont make comments on things I dont know about.

Maybe you could learn that same lesson instead of being an 'armchair expert' who has zero experience of the BTCC but thinks he knows everything?

[touring fan01]

"But I do think I have valid point in the things I do complain about, most notably no penalties for bad driver behaviour (punting people off etc)"

See? There you go again making statements that are just not correct. No penalties are handed out? So why did Adam Jones get one at croft? For bad flower arranging??

[stedevil]

> Maybe you could learn that same lesson instead of being an 'armchair expert' who has zero experience of the BTCC but thinks he knows everything?

I have as much on location experience from WTCC as I have from BTCC, yet I can clearly see there is a big difference of what is allowed and not allowed in both these series. Even from the armchair you can make relevant comparisons between 2 apples.

Additionally this opinion BTW is shared by many others, some of which are regular RL BTCC visitors. And this is on this very forum both presently as well in the past (I accidentally during a search stumbled across loads of very long threads discussing exactly this problem in BTCC, it's pretty much brought up annually...)

And that you can't say much about STCC, that can very well be true. Minimum requirement would be to actually follow the races on TV (which from this year you actually can even in the UK). You are most welcome to watch it and come with your opinions of what is bad. Chances are we might even agree on several of your complaints.