Should the IRL keep Pheonix?

[trow]

Originally Posted by Ac.

Phoenix isn't growing, it's shrinking. Attendance has been declining since the IRL started racing there.

which came first the chicken or the egg ....

[Xpunk75]

I think you guy's have to realize that the big name american racer's that made indycar so awsome back in the day are all to old now to race and have retired and seems like no one followed in there footsteps at all thats why everyone is foriegn. All our freaking young successful american drivers all they want to drive is NASSSSSSCARRRRRR and it makes me sick. I was so hopping to see Jeff Gordon in F1 cause that would have been awsome even if he would have sucked lol. F1 has the same problem. The last American driver was Micheal Andrettie and he wasn't any good at F1 and Senna embarressed him. Thank God for Reb Bull racing and trying to get young American talent into open wheel racing. Maybe in 5 or 10 years will see some great American open wheel drivers. Hell even more Canadians would be good for the sport so long as the speak english and we can relate to them like we did with Jack Villenuve and Pail Tracy.

I think another problem is that its hard to get into racing if you don't have the money. So alot of talent in our country is lost to that. Go Karting is not cheap for young kids and I doubt any of the schools are ether, but like I said before everyone wants to be a NassCar Super Star there not interested in F1 or Champ Car or IRL there lucky they have ever even herd of it and know it exist. I'd say of all Americna Race Fans that are in this country 30% watch any of the big three open wheel racing leagues. The rest watch NassCar and Dirt Bikes.

Ohl just asking does anyone know a website on any info about the new Open Wheel Racing League A1 which is going to be in Europe and i guess Arabia cause i watch the unvailing of the first teams car and it looked pretty sweet. Send me on MSN Chat or email at Xpunk75@hotmail.com

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

Phoenix is a drivers track. Anyone including me can run 1.5 miles ovals with a limited amount of success. Attendance shouldn't be the determinating factor in whether a race is kept or not but the lack thereof is always paramount.

I'm curious to hear your opinion, if you were able to have it your way, would you change the tracks that the series visits and/or perhaps the way it executes races? What do you think the problem with the attendance @ Phoenix is? From a superfiscal point of view one would think that one of the better tracks in the country would attact a crowd.

[Team Owner]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I'm curious to hear your opinion, if you were able to have it your way, would you change the tracks that the series visits and/or perhaps the way it executes races? What do you think the problem with the attendance @ Phoenix is? From a superfiscal point of view one would think that one of the better tracks in the country would attact a crowd.

The only track I would get rid of is Motegi. That race was added only to placate Honda. If your basic premise is US based open wheel racing then you should confine yourself to the continental United States. Unless you can have another race in a Pacific Rim country then the trip to Motegi is not worth it to teams or spnosors or anyone else for that matter.
The problem with Phoenix has been caused by several reason notwithstanding the Nascar juggernaut.
Timing: The IndyCar race in Phoenix used to be after baseballs spring training. Now it competes for fans = Not Good.
Timing: Saturday? ISC wanted that change and it didn't work. A Saturday race will only work if it's a night race and in conjunction with the USAC Copper World Classic.
Timing: The split in open wheel racing could not have come at a worse time as Nascar was really taking off and took most of the casual viewers and entrenched itself in the Americans "dollars spent for entertainment".
I don't think that open wheel racing, save local short tracks, will ever reach the popularity of Nascar as I don't think it was ever as popular even before the split. The two leagues lost out with the split while Nascar and F-1 continued to increase in popularity and took what was left of the American open wheel fan base.
Tracks to add? The only way tracks should be added to the schedule is if the two series get together or one of them folds. The tracks that OWRS has that have good attendance are Long Beach and the races in Mexico and Canada but I'm not sure the fan base would welcome the IRL unless the two series were to combine. I really think it's a no win situation for open wheel racing in the US.

[Purist]

CART also has Surfers Paradise as a successful venue.

Unfortunately, my thoughts on what to do with the schedule are pretty well dependent on there being only one US open wheel series.

One of the big things I'd like to see is a return to the "Triple Crown." I'm thinking 500 milers at Indianapolis, Michigan, and Pocono, and perhaps a fourth at Fontana.

To be honest, I hope the IRL never even considers Daytona or Talladega (Can you imagine an open wheel pile-up at either of those two, not to mention the speeds they would run even if they were somewhat restricted?).

[hawkeracer]

"The Cup series adding a second race at Phoenix might be a reason for the smaller-than-usual crowd as well."

No, it seems that when CART was there, people "wanted" to go. With the IRL "show", very few have interest in 'managed racing', and fewer still want to give one dime to Tony George.

My daughter, who works for Roger Penske, went with free tickets, and someone coming up with 18000 would be very generous.

Just my opinion.

[BootsOntheSide]

NASCAR is infinitely more 'managed' that IRL in terms of how the results come about. It's just been managed a lot better, at every level. They've got their races properly promoted, and people know the drivers and teams much better than in the IRL. To repeat a point made previously, OW attendances really began to fall before the split - the influx of lots of overseas drivers at the expense of young US talent is probably the main cause.

[trow]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

NASCAR is infinitely more 'managed' that IRL in terms of how the results come about. It's just been managed a lot better, at every level. They've got their races properly promoted, and people know the drivers and teams much better than in the IRL. To repeat a point made previously, OW attendances really began to fall before the split - the influx of lots of overseas drivers at the expense of young US talent is probably the main cause.

It is.

If one takes the time to look at the bigger picture and avoid useless emotion it's easy to see when the decline began. In 1993 the amount of foreign road racers went through the roof, and the short trackers were turned away, and towards cup racing. In the old days the biggest stars came from USAC and drove on the Championship Trail. Thats the days when Indy experienced it's largest attendance, whether it be for Pole day, Bump day, Carb Day, or Race day, they were huge. People used to line up to get in the infields for the best spots. It was nuts! The 80's were also huge for IndyCar, and that's what most old CART people remember, and with good reason ... CART became wildly popular after their inception in 1979 based on the history of Indy and their crop of talented drivers, like Al Unser, AJ Foyt, Rick Mears, Tom Sneva, Danny Sullivan, etc ... guys that had been racing for years and had built huge followings of fans. Is it really that hard for people to understand what happened? You don't build a series overnight! Indianapolis can lend product credibility but fans have still got to know what the hell the drivers name is and where he/she's from. Tony George did the right thing, but I wish like crazy he was 36 in 1986 instead of 1996. Jeff Gordon might have been going up against HCN at St Pete had that been the case!!!

[rush1]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

Phoenix is a drivers track. Anyone including me can run 1.5 miles ovals with a limited amount of success. Attendance shouldn't be the determinating factor in whether a race is kept or not but the lack thereof is always paramount.

I like Pheonix as well, Hopefully next year the crowd will be larger. But with a 17 race schedule you need to have people at the events. A race crowd under 20,000 doesn't cut it.

[Flatspot]

I'm not an IRL fan but I will say it would have been hard for any motorsport to draw a crowd considering the NCAA basketball tournament was in town with lots of western schools playing there. Hotel rooms were nonexistant and everyone was at the ball game.

[Purist]

I really don't find it that hard to figure out who is who when watching a race. I find that making the proper mental associations to identify cars, teams, and drivers isn't that hard if you want to know, and I'm blind in one eye to boot. Also, I don't mind if the driver isn't American if he/she has the ability to compete. I mean I'm all for seeing Americans in the cockpit, but the slots should go to the best drivers period. I just don't go for the whole ethnocentrism thing.

BTW, Mario Andretti is Italian, not American, and that hasn't seemed to stop millions over here and world-wide from becoming avid fans of his.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Purist

BTW, Mario Andretti is Italian, not American, and that hasn't seemed to stop millions over here and world-wide from becoming avid fans of his.

Mario may have been born in Italy, but he is American.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Mario may have been born in Italy, but he is American.

Not to mention he came up through the sprint-car ranks, and more importantly, was very successful in just about everything he competed in.

[Purist]

There is a big difference between many of those older drivers and the current crop. Tighter schedules have basically forced most to stick primarily to one racing discipline. Andretti, Foyt, etc. drove in a number of major categories, and were successful in those different kinds of cars. Not only did this build their reputations, but it exposed them to a much larger audience overall.

[trow]

Originally Posted by Purist

There is a big difference between many of those older drivers and the current crop. Tighter schedules have basically forced most to stick primarily to one racing discipline. Andretti, Foyt, etc. drove in a number of major categories, and were successful in those different kinds of cars. Not only did this build their reputations, but it exposed them to a much larger audience overall.

They were all part of the Championship Trail. If IndyCar were to go back to a series of races on the various types of racing surfaces, then we'd have something that hit back at that ultimate-racecar-driver affix and got away from the money-first, or business mentality. I believe though it will take a race or two on the dirt tracks to earn the acceptance of the casual viewership - the soft money folks.

[Purist]

The dirt track stuff, and lower leagues in general, haven't really ever been on my radar, so that aspect doesn't affect my thinking concerning CART/IRL, or any other major series. None of the major publications cover the sprint cars and such in detail (at least none that are available where I live). Also, I've never had cable, so I've never been able to really watch those feeder series anyway.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Purist

The dirt track stuff, and lower leagues in general, haven't really ever been on my radar, so that aspect doesn't affect my thinking concerning CART/IRL, or any other major series. None of the major publications cover the sprint cars and such in detail (at least none that are available where I live). Also, I've never had cable, so I've never been able to really watch those feeder series anyway.

No, but this was in regards to your comment about Andretti, who started in sprint cars and built a large fanbase there already. Not to mention sprint car racing got more attention back in those days, since you had drivers crossing over into different types of racing while still racing - and being very successful - in sprint cars.

Also, calling sprint car racing a "feeder" is almost an insult to sprint car racing in general

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Flatspot

I'm not an IRL fan but I will say it would have been hard for any motorsport to draw a crowd considering the NCAA basketball tournament was in town with lots of western schools playing there. Hotel rooms were nonexistant and everyone was at the ball game.

Thanks for posting that Flatspot, especially since your not an IRL fan.

Why would they schedule the race to conflict with "March Madness" in the first place? You would think that the promotors are smarter than that.

Originally Posted by Purist

The dirt track stuff, and lower leagues in general, haven't really ever been on my radar, so that aspect doesn't affect my thinking concerning CART/IRL, or any other major series. None of the major publications cover the sprint cars and such in detail (at least none that are available where I live). Also, I've never had cable, so I've never been able to really watch those feeder series anyway.

It may not be on your radar, but it is to many IndyCar fans, especially older ones who remember all of the great IndyCar stars that started out there. NASCAR is now the lucky recipient of the dirt track stars. Most all of their big stars today started out there, and the fans have been following them for years, getting to know them. In open wheel, drivers are kind of thrown at us these days, without us ever having seen them before, and coming from series that are virtually unknown and unseen by us here. They maybe great drivers, but there unidentifiable to most American fans. That's no way to build a series, or keep your fan base excited.

The IRL need's to start getting these dirt track guys again. Anyone who watches a JJ Yealey, Tony Stewart, or NASCAR's latest hero, Carl Edwards - what a weekend he just had! - knows that.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by Purist

I really don't find it that hard to figure out who is who when watching a race. I find that making the proper mental associations to identify cars, teams, and drivers isn't that hard if you want to know, and I'm blind in one eye to boot. Also, I don't mind if the driver isn't American if he/she has the ability to compete. I mean I'm all for seeing Americans in the cockpit, but the slots should go to the best drivers period. I just don't go for the whole ethnocentrism thing.

BTW, Mario Andretti is Italian, not American, and that hasn't seemed to stop millions over here and world-wide from becoming avid fans of his.

Maybe the point of this thread has just whizzed past your other eye. Mario (and all the other greats people have affection for) were racing in the US in reguional championships long before they reached Indy car racing. Knowing the (unpronouncable?) name of the (unknown?) driver in a car with a sponsor you've neve rheard of and wuill never come across day-by-day is a poor substitute for watching guys you already know and vcan have followed for years. I used to see thigns the same way as you, but now I realise that familiarity and loyalty are important as well. When a series has 10-12 potential race winners, it needs at least 4-5 of those to be ladder-series guys.

Most of the biggest racing stars in the US are in NASCAR, and any of them could've reached IRL or ChampCar and done well, but they weren't given the chance. The idea of having a couple of dirt-track races could be a good one - it'd cerytainly be a new spectacle for someone like myself.

[GP Racer]

Being that fan turnout was so small at Phoenix, I found this comment abit odd. From paddocktalk :



IRL Series Officials Against Phoenix Date Change ?


Observers worried about the attendance at the IRL Phoenix race might be curious to find out that although PIR has apparently been willing to change the date, and time of the race.... IRL officials haven't.

Azcentral.com is reporting that competition for people's attention in Phoenix during the month of March is highly competitive. The site writes that PIR suggested a February race, or a night race in September.... "but the IRL wouldn't budge".

I wonder why not?

[Purist]

The points I guess I was trying to make are that I'm not particularly concerned with where the drivers come from (what country), and that I've never been able to see any of these guys in action in anything but the top echelon series (CART, IRL, NASCAR, etc.). I have to identify the drivers, perhaps a bit quickly, once they are already in the major series, or I wouldn't have anyone to identify with in racing at all. I suppose it's a capcity I developed out of necessity, since I have wanted to follow motorsport for as long as I can remember.

[macdaddy]

Earlier in the thread, it was suggested that the attendance was 15-18K.

The ISC has provided an official number of 8,312.

[luke]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

Earlier in the thread, it was suggested that the attendance was 15-18K.

The ISC has provided an official number of 8,312.

The low attendance, may have been affected by the fact it was on a saturday, but we shall see for sure as the NASCAR, Nextel Cup race in a few months (one of the two visits) is on a Saturday.

[trow]

Originally Posted by luke

The low attendance, may have been affected by the fact it was on a saturday, but we shall see for sure as the NASCAR, Nextel Cup race in a few months (one of the two visits) is on a Saturday.

you are taking the ****, right ...

You could run NASCAR on Christmas morning and they'd have a sellout.

[Snrub]

I have to say that I'm surprised @ the 8,312 figure. Maybe it was the camera angle and people were well spaced out, but I thought it looked like more than that. I have to again ask, how was this event was promoted? It seems like it would be difficult to get a number that low! (same applies @ Laguna last year for CC) All the traditional reasons used to explain the failing of OW don't seem sufficient to explain this...

The local rural short track isn't far from that on a weekly basis all summer long. I think when they do "endro" races they only have one kind of car run, and those are simply street cars from the early 80s with a roll cage welded in! Surely an area with a much larger population, running something that is so exotic that it can barely be considered a car, can muster better attendance.

I would think that race attendance would have no effect on Saturday vs. Sunday, but I could easily be wrong. The above mentioned local track runs races Friday and Saturday night.