Is the Indy Type Racing forum losing contributors?

Neil C · 22 Oct 2002, 18:09 (Ref:410387)

I read less and less of the posts in this forum, and contribute even more infrequently.

There is hardly a post that does not use the currently popular derogatory terms for IRL, its fans and competitors. I'm sure the persons who coined the phrases "invisibiles", "deserters", "crapwagons" are proud that their perjoratives have become common usage. But now we are empowered to declare that, as I just read in a post in this forum: "All the *******s are in IRL now", which is the next logical progression in marginalizing anyone and anything to do with IRL or oval racing, including fellow 10/10ths posters.

Notably absent from this forum are several longtime contributors who have been unfortunate enough to admit they are also IRL fans. Maybe they think as I do; if you reply to a post that uses the above terms, you are tacitly helping these forums become a place only for those who share the views implied by these terms. "The rest of you go somewhere else where your inferior views about your inferior racing are tolerated" is the message I'm getting.

If the IRL is so invisible, why are we spending so much time convincing ourselves they are not worth our attention, and inviting non-conforming opinions to go elsewhere?

The F1 forum suffered when it became little more than a venue for Schumacher/anti Schumacher battles. Similarly, I can read 10 topics in this forum, and feel fortunate if I can find one that doesn't turn to diminishing someone else's sport.

Nothing I say will change it. I just hope this current trend runs its course and I can put this forum back at the top of the list of forums I enjoy reading and participating in.

jcclausen · 22 Oct 2002, 19:41 (Ref:410471)

I believe the vehement dislike of the IRL, by some, stems from the lack of integrity of one Tony George. Consequently, those who profess to be fans of the IRL are put in the same box. This is indeed unfortunate. I'm certain there must be an IRL fan with integrity. I've just never met one yet.

formulastudent · 22 Oct 2002, 19:45 (Ref:410475)

I think the IRL vs. CART division is making itself felt even here.

Jay · 22 Oct 2002, 19:51 (Ref:410485)

I can see how some feel this way, but at the same time, this is the state of open-wheel racing in North America right now, and it 'aint pretty. This forum is not-unlike many other Cart or IRL forums around the net.

If you're looking for a change, that likely won't come within the next year or so... The series are not going to merge, and it is looking more and more as if the IRL will be more closely aligned with Nascar and Cart will be more aligned with Formula 1. This may sound strange to someone watching the series on TV, but that's how the fan bases are aligned. The majority of people that attend IRL races (besides the Indy race) are Nascar fans, and the majority of people who attend Cart races also attend ALMS or F1.

In many ways, it's quite the wonder that the two series are under same 'Indy Type Racing'... It would be much more appropriate to have the Cart forum grouped with F1 or Sportscars, and the IRL forum grouped with Nascar/Ascar/Cascar.

formulastudent · 22 Oct 2002, 19:57 (Ref:410499)

So what you are saying here, I think is that Cart appeals to a more pro-european/world section of the US domestic audience whereas nascar and IRL appeal to the 'all american - the rest of the world can go jump' section of the audience.

Correct me if i'm wrong but that's what the little letters between the lines seem to say

Liz · 22 Oct 2002, 20:10 (Ref:410523)

I think this is a lot like when two of your friends get divorced, and they both say "You can't stay friends with both of us, you have to choose either that low down snake in the grass or me."

In a divorce it is not pretty, and in this divorce it is not pretty, but eventually when all the legal matters are sorted out and the people take up their own lives again, occasionally it is possible for someone to be friends with both parties.

But not always. When my youngest sister got divorced it took her 7 years to even allow her ex-husbands name to be spoken in the presence of their child.

formulastudent · 22 Oct 2002, 20:13 (Ref:410529)

good analogy, on the same thread, it's a shame that things had to come to this,so often differences can be solved by mediation, chnage of attitude without the need for divorce.

I really hope it's not going to be 7 years of war between IRL and cart.

Neil C · 22 Oct 2002, 20:16 (Ref:410536)

Quote:

Originally posted by jcclausen
I'm certain there must be an IRL fan with integrity. I've just never met one yet.

Very enlightening, jc. This is what I mean. The discussion is already slanted when you start from the base that "all IRL fans are dishonest".

CART and IRL, even if they were tied to F1 and NASCAR corporately, does not need to be a cultural abyss with Euro road racing fans on one side and US ovals on the other. It is this tendency to make everything political that is driving me nuts. Can't one be allowed to enjoy either or both without declaring a cultural war against the other?

C'mon, it's just a sport.

formulastudent · 22 Oct 2002, 20:26 (Ref:410556)

I agree, we should all be able to enjoy whatever series floats our boat without mouthing off the others.

I didn't like IRL to begin with, but simply becuase the racing was lame, you had inexperienced drivers, with no money and terrible engines, this has now changed a LOT, IRL is a good series to watch, it's quite exciting (more thanf1!!) I like nascar, I like Cart because of the total variety of tracks require a top drive to jack of all configurations... F1 is the only series which curently leaves me a bit cold, it's just stagnant, the teams have worked themselves into a technology vs watchability hole that Bernie is going to have to do something about. I used to watch every race, now I just watch the qualifying and catch the highlights.

Earlier I hope I was clarifying what i saw in Jay's post. I don't agree with it, but he can say what he feels.

Jay · 22 Oct 2002, 20:36 (Ref:410575)

No, that was about what I was saying... It should be pointed out that a lot of Nascar fans attend IRL races because they had to buy the IRL ticket to get the Nascar ticket...hence the reason the two series' fans are so closely aligned...

I'm just not a fan of oval racing, period. I don't even enjoy Cart's oval races and wouldn't miss them if they were to go. It just doesn't interest me, sorry.

JohnSSC · 22 Oct 2002, 20:53 (Ref:410608)

I think though that as "fans" we should be allowed to separate the on-track action from the behind (and not-so-behind) the scenes politics.

There are some types of racing I like better than others. That does not mean there are not times when I will watch something for the entertainment value or I have not tuned in for a bit. By and large, I do try to allow for the fact that what is my cup of tea may not be someone else's or attack their post because they are supporting something run by someone I do not like.

I do not like the "divorce" analogy so much in that, going through one myself I do not like it when someone else dictates a third party's exposure - and therefore opinion - to a particular personality or idea. Even children are capable of making an informed decision. As adults on this forum I would hope that the point of the discussion is to provide "food for thought" so that others may make their own decision. Or, at least be able to contribute their own reasoned (one hopes) opinion.

My own opinion is that the more racing there is, the broader the support for a truly exceptional sport! Yes, there are going to be bumps in the road, but hopefully we will all be able to find and enjoy the type of racing we prefer.

rush1 · 22 Oct 2002, 21:17 (Ref:410662)

Usually in a divorce (unless it is REALLY bad) the parties don't try to kill one another. The IRL - CART split has been a corporate war with each side trying to choke off the competition - each other. In the US, this was the case with the American Football Conference and the National Football Conference in the 1960's. Both sides merged and the dispute was over. The NBA and the ABA had a similar dispute before the ABA folded in the 70's. There is some historical precedent here.

Of cource, neither side will merge in the current dispute and it seems there might not be enough entertainment dollars to keep both racing leagues solvent. How many more corporate defections will it take before CART throws in the towel like the ABA? Will Shell and Fedex be the final nail in the coffin? The end might be closer than it appears.

Flatspot · 22 Oct 2002, 22:27 (Ref:410722)

Neil, its guys like Rush who most of the people here tell to take a leap. Constant flame-baits like the one above (which is about the mildest I've read from her/him). I haven't seen too many people who admit they like the IRL get berated unless it's someone like Rush that just comes here to be beligerant and IMHO should be told where to go. As far as the name calling goes it is consise way to declare which side of the fence your on. I see no harm when done on this forum.

Rush asserts that CART is trying to kill the IRL. I urge him to show me where. All I've seen is and olive branch repeatedly held out by CART and then swatted away by TG. It is this that makes us die hard CART fans upset with the IRL or more directly, with TG. I don't see anyone here complaining about other forms of motorsport. Where else can you voice your opinion on this subject?

I admit I haven't been here long enough to see many come and go. As far as I'm concerned anyone can watch anything they want if it turns them on. However, if it's pro-IRL they can talk about it, rave, rage, whatever, on the IRL board. They don't need to do it here. TG has declared himself the enemy of CART and as such if a CART fan wants to ***** about him or his series here, they should have the right to do it. By the same token they should stay off the IRL board when complaining.

I'm glad you like CART and if you like the IRL too, so be it. Personally I opt not to support them. In the end we need to do what makes us feel good and be happy about it. That's all that really counts anyway.

**Adam43** · 22 Oct 2002, 22:27 (Ref:410724)

The split is not good for the sport overall. The bitterness is destroying both 'sides'.

And it's not pretty.

Such a shame.

Liz · 22 Oct 2002, 22:37 (Ref:410729)

Neil, for one reason why "we can't just get along" you can take a look at rush1, who comes here for the sole purpose of jeering and mocking at Champ Car fans, although he has his own forum in which he can do that with great comfort -- and we don't go over there to do the same, you may notice -- although the two fora were separated to prevent this very thing from happening.

Everyone reacts to divorce in his or her own way. Some of us feel betrayed by people we used to think were quite different, especially when they come out in public with less than friendly or even truthful statements about the series in which they made their names. How many times have you heard some guy say that after 20 years of marriage and 4 children, he has now found "true love" with Fifi La Tush, and had his wife simply shrug it off and say "Well, we'll all be friends and I'll be over next week to cook dinner for Fifi and babysit her children." [As for TG, does the term "homewrecker" still have any meaning?]

We are entitled to our feelings. We will get over them in time, probably when the new teams are announced and we have something else to focus on.

Meanwhile, until I have changed the locks, burned the ex's photos, and had a chance to forget about them and absorb myself in someone new, I reserve my right to my feelings.

Sorry if you think I should throw roses at the deserters and pretend that their anti-CART words and their behaviour is acceptable. It isn't and I won't.

Jordi · 22 Oct 2002, 22:42 (Ref:410737)

Well, this is becoming another topic about IRL vs. CART. Y'all know what I think, so I'm not going to say a thing.

Also a problem has been lack of racing. Thankfully this week there'll be CART. And there'll be CART for a long time.

greg.n · 22 Oct 2002, 23:05 (Ref:410758)

While i agree that we don't really need the 'angst' that enters the IRL vs CART spiral it does help us know who are friends and who are foe, that is if we look upon it as a war. i do, but only because of the TG attitude, not because I have anything against the people in the IRL. I do feel that those who have built their success and reputations in CART and have crossed to the IRL are being opportunistic, but thats an opinion and if its at their sponsors behest its hardly their decision. Interesting to note some comments by Justin Wilson on Autosport.com. He says CART will bounce back, that it has probably reached the bottom of its fall and it would be a good career move for any aspiring driver... Wilson has just tested for Newman-Haas and is the 2001 F3000 champion...

mac · 22 Oct 2002, 23:48 (Ref:410789)

It is what the IRL stand for, how they run, and the way TG operates that really irritate me. Consequently, I cannot bring myself to watch it. Simple as that.

jcclausen · 23 Oct 2002, 00:08 (Ref:410796)

Quote:

The discussion is already slanted when you start from the base that "all IRL fans are dishonest"

Quite frankly, Neil C, I don't personally know any IRL fans. I'll put it this way; anyone who supports a low down snake-in-the-grass, such as Tony George, has his/her belly in the dirt also. Sorry if you are offended, that's my opinion, which I value highly!

Crash Test · 23 Oct 2002, 01:32 (Ref:410833)

Fully agree Neil C.

I must admit it is becoming more and more difficult to moderate this forum... nearly every thread people are stepping over the line, or simply heading off in a direction to lay **** on the IRL. What's the point of intervening when 95% of the population will shoot you down in flames?

I think a lot of the problem is that people are in denial that CART has problems, and the IRL is the best possible scapegoat. If people weren't so blinkered, there wouldn't be a drama.

How about we start talking more about what is going on on the track? After Miami, about the only thread about the racing was how that "traitor" Kanaan punted off "one of the good guys".

Lee Janotta · 23 Oct 2002, 02:28 (Ref:410848)

Too long with no good racing or real news. Speculation gets old after a while.

No excuse for 3 weeks between races. Surfer's should close out the season.

I'm bored. No CART, no WRC... No nothing.

Flatspot · 23 Oct 2002, 03:12 (Ref:410862)

Agreed, Lee

JohnSSC · 23 Oct 2002, 03:43 (Ref:410879)

Crash Test, thank you for being the voice of reason. I've not been here long myself but my own observation is that there is an inability to separate personalities from on-track events. There seems to be a bit of "flame-baiting" going on on both sides as I have seen CART posters in the IRL forum and vice versa but even the on track action is couched in terms as you noted above. The product is compared but in a very personalized way, rather than on relative merits. Kind of like reviewing a movie based on your opinion of the producer, rather than the director/actors.

Not easy being a mod I guess, is it?

Aspirin must be in short supply at your place!

f1manoz · 23 Oct 2002, 05:01 (Ref:410896)

Neil,

While I concur with most of what you had to say, I'd just like to add one point:

IRL fans are the one's who come over to this side of the board, which is specifically set up for CART discussion, and do nothing but banter about the 'death of CART' and so on. Yet do we do that to their board, go over and go 'Death to IRL' and 'CART is better'?

No, we do that on our own side of the board.

Personally, I'm not fussed about people who want to watch the IRL. No concern to me at all. But when they want to come on here and just post flame baits (there is one forum member in particular who does this constantly) then of course arguments will take place and the general atmosphere of the forum will disintegrate.

macdaddy · 23 Oct 2002, 05:24 (Ref:410912)

Let me start by saying that I just typed in an fricking essay here, only to hit the wrong key and lose it all. So I'm not going to bother doing it all again.

In short... There have been some flame-baits in the "invisible" forum as well. And the baits here in this forum are basically centered around certain individuals. But in a way I find that person(s) rather funny in their own ignorance.

It's much like the F1 forum, as alluded to earlier, in that many (most) threads there end up in a TGF/anti-TGF tangent. It's just the basic mindset of the fanbase. The effects of the split are being felt more than ever, and they're bound to come up in conversation. Doesn't bother me, really. Attach monikers to any of the drivers or owners you wish to. That's fine. Just never attach monikers to fans. Words like "integrity" are unfounded when speaking to fellow motorsport fans.

My opinion? Go ahead and watch the IRL if there's nothing else on TV. Beats the hell out of Oprah. Don't go to the races, don't support sponsors, don't let TG get a single penny of your money. In that way you're not hurting CART, or any fellow members, in any way, shape, or form. There are a few drivers "over there" who are pretty good, but just never got "the breaks". Guys like Sharp and Giaffone. And I'll always be a fan of Gil's. A smarter, cleaner racer you'll never find.

Like everybody else, I'm so looking forward to this next event. No racing, no announcements, no nothing for what seems like an eternity.

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