[Team] Lotus to race against Lotus

[Wims]

Actually, there are trademark laws in most countries that state that if you do not enforce your trademark you will lose the rights to use it. If Fernandez-Lotus ran as team lotus in 2010 with a group lotus license one could argue that David Hunt did not protect his trademark and that he would lose control over it in 2011

[mattt]

They ran as Lotus Racing though

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

Different entities all together. From Jalopnik:

Someone needs to make this into a T shirt. Only in F1.
I support Fernandes and Gascoyne.

[Teretonga]

Tis bizzare situation looks as though it has sprung from a boardroom brawl

TF and bahar disagreed over something in late summer 2010.
Group Lotus withdrew the right to brand as Lotus racing so Fernandez did a deal with David Hunt to retain use of the name.
Bahar said you have no right, but in fact they did and it was Group Lotus who had no rights to claim the history of Team Lotus.
TF created a GP2 team so Bahar sponsored ART GP to become Lotus-ART GP in GP2 and GP3....

Bahar? Group Lotus? To me it seems its just tit for tat....childish really.

To pre-empt any argument over colours TF said they would run in black and gold then Bahar declares Group Lotus Renault will run in black and gold!

What we may now have is the high court establish that the Team Lotus rights belong to Fernandez and we end up with two Lotus Renaults on the grid although I now think it is highly unlikely that Team Lotus will be black and gold, probably green and yellow....and that is fine.

The FIA will not be able to prevent Fernandez from entering as he will have the rights to the team name and we will have a bizzare situation of Genii's team, formerly known as Renault, now partly owned and sponsored by a loss making Group Lotus and carrying branding for both Lotus and Renault, painted in black and a garish looking gold striping (the pin striping on the car at the announcement was awful, nothing like the fine neat understated striping at Team Lotus in the 70's). And ultimately paid for by Malaysian tax payers.

Meanwhile Fernandez runs team Lotus, suppoerted by the profits of an airline that was given to him because the Malaysian government couldn't afford to continue to support the lossmaking enterprise.... Now they will pay off Bahars loans instead.

Team Lotus could run in the white with green and yellow striping of 1991 if they wished, or the Gold leaf colours or plain green or the blue red and silver of Essex Petroleum of they wished, they will still be Team Lotus if the legal right is confirmed by the courts.

I don't mind having two Lotus Renaults but Genii's managment of the situation isn't smart.
And the Malaysian government doesnt seem to have a clue about F1 or how to run a car company.

[davyboy]

We'll have to see what the High Court says, but the fact that David Hunt didn't use the Team Lotus Mark in an automotive context, isn't good news for him or Tony Fernandez. If the Team Lotus Mark has lapsed, then depending on how Group Lotus' have their Marks registered, they may be in a position to claim that Fernandez use of the Team Lotus Mark is an infringement of their's and he would be ordered to cease use and a claim for damages could be entertained.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've quite lot of experience in marks and this isn't as clear cut as people may think.

[Ingsy]

Hahaha 4 Louts cars all with the same livery, that'll confuse old Legard even more!

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by davyboy

We'll have to see what the High Court says, but the fact that David Hunt didn't use the Team Lotus Mark in an automotive context, isn't good news for him or Tony Fernandez. If the Team Lotus Mark has lapsed, then depending on how Group Lotus' have their Marks registered, they may be in a position to claim that Fernandez use of the Team Lotus Mark is an infringement of their's and he would be ordered to cease use and a claim for damages could be entertained.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've quite lot of experience in marks and this isn't as clear cut as people may think.

Take a look at the information on http://www.saveteamlotus.com/ .It clearly says that David Hunt was in charge of Team Lotus for the final races of 1994,he had an alliance with Pacific in 1995 and ran a low key heritage trading facility for a few more years.
The earlier references to smoking call to mind that the whole issue is getting a bit cloudy.The most illuminating topic would be an examination of where the funding is coming from,and how in any sense there will be any kind of return on what is supposed to be an investment.If the source of the funding is identified,I might know of a bridge for sale.........

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by davyboy

We'll have to see what the High Court says, but the fact that David Hunt didn't use the Team Lotus Mark in an automotive context, isn't good news for him or Tony Fernandez. If the Team Lotus Mark has lapsed, then depending on how Group Lotus' have their Marks registered, they may be in a position to claim that Fernandez use of the Team Lotus Mark is an infringement of their's and he would be ordered to cease use and a claim for damages could be entertained.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've quite lot of experience in marks and this isn't as clear cut as people may think.

Great info, thanks.

[slicktoast]

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[GTRMagic]

So in the teev show 'The West Wing', they certainly used initialism to proclaim 'POTUS' as 'President Of The United States'

With this in mind, what might 'LOTUS' become?

Oh, and kinda on topic, is Mr Kubica in a position to escape the not-Lotus Renault squad now that there has been a change in ownership? And where might he end up

You know the sad part... it can no longer be "Webber to Renault"

[duke_toaster]

One minor error with that diagram and something that needs to be pointed out. David Hunt bought all of Team Lotus, not just the trademark, and it did race under his ownership (1994 Australian and Japanese Grands Prix). The team was shuttered and there was then an alliance with Pacific for one year before they went, presumably during the latter the trademarks were comfortably in the hands of David Hunt.

EDIT : This quote from Joe Saward from his blog

Originally Posted by Joe Saward

The law has yet to decide who is right and who is wrong, but the signs do not look good for Group Lotus and if they lose the legal action, they can expect further legal action against them claiming damages. Proton is supporting Bahar because to fail to do so would be accepting that it was a mistake to appoint him. Pride is involved. The automotive industry does not seem to give Bahar much chance of pulling off all the stunts he is hoping to achieve. The proof of the pudding will be when it comes to selling cars – if indeed all his projects get that far. If that fails then Lotus will fall. The Malaysian government will be forced to pay the loans and very possibly Tony Fernandes will be in a position to pick up the ruins of Lotus and/or Proton and build a proper car company, based on sound business principles. He did this most successfully with the AirAsia airline after the Malaysian government messed that up.

Forgive me for saying something that might be a little controversial, but I think the Lotus name in the road car market would be better in the hands of Tony Fernandes, just look at what he did when he took another failing company of the hands of the Malaysian government.

[VIVA GT]

I'm all in favour of Fernadez & Gasgoigne remaining as the 'Official team Lotus'.
One niggling fact I have in my mind however regarding the story that Team Lotus & Group Lotus have remained seperate since the 1950's is this. I can remember Lotus Elan road cars carrying little plaques proudly stating something along the lines of "Lotus, World F1 Costructors Champions". I can't remember any uproar about Group Lotus trading on the reputation of (the seperate) Team Lotus at the time...

[Rgms320]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Forgive me for saying something that might be a little controversial, but I think the Lotus name in the road car market would be better in the hands of Tony Fernandes, just look at what he did when he took another failing company of the hands of the Malaysian government.

I think a lot of us feel that way, Duke.

[Jamesy-18]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Oh, and kinda on topic, is Mr Kubica in a position to escape the not-Lotus Renault squad now that there has been a change in ownership? And where might he end up

If he's got any sense, nowhere. Unless he really wants to drive for Virgin or HRT of course...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'm all in favour of Fernadez & Gasgoigne remaining as the 'Official team Lotus'.
One niggling fact I have in my mind however regarding the story that Team Lotus & Group Lotus have remained seperate since the 1950's is this. I can remember Lotus Elan road cars carrying little plaques proudly stating something along the lines of "Lotus, World F1 Costructors Champions". I can't remember any uproar about Group Lotus trading on the reputation of (the seperate) Team Lotus at the time...

There were JPS Esprit's as well. I'm not sure what the shareholding of Lotus Cars and Team Lotus was back in the day... but if Colin Chapman had a controlling interest in both, they would be classified as 'related parties' from a corporate and tax perspective at the very least. From a trademark perspective, there's no doubt that one derived benefit from the other... explicitly and implicitly.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

One minor error with that diagram and something that needs to be pointed out. David Hunt bought all of Team Lotus, not just the trademark, and it did race under his ownership (1994 Australian and Japanese Grands Prix). The team was shuttered and there was then an alliance with Pacific for one year before they went, presumably during the latter the trademarks were comfortably in the hands of David Hunt.

This is what I've managed to dig up from Companies House.

o Team Lotus Limited was incorporated on 4th November 1994.
o David Hunt was appointed a Director of Team Lotus Limited on 21st November 1994.
o The last filed accounts for this company was 1999.
o The company is now dissolved.

-- I'm assuming that Team Lotus Limited was the vehicle used to acquire the Lotus Formula One Team back then... but I can't find evidence of that.

o Team Lotus Ventures Limited was incorporated 6th December 1994.
o It became the parent company of Team Lotus Limited [I'm not sure when that happened].
o This organization is classified as "93050 : Other service activities not elsewhere classified" under the UK SIC coding system rather than anything automotive.
o David Hunt is no longer a director of this company and Tony Fernandes was appointed as a director on 23rd July 2010.
o "Horwood Limited", an overseas entity is currently the parent of Team Lotus Ventures Limited.

The 1994 Japanese Grand Prix was held on 6th November 1994 and the 1994 Australian Grand Prix was held on 13th November 1994. Both predate David Hunt's appointment as a director of Team Lotus Limited... however he may have been a shareholder.

I can't find any evidence that between 1995 and today, the "Lotus" Mark was enforced by David Hunt, Team Lotus Limited or Team Lotus Ventures Limited in an automotive context. By not enforcing the Mark, David Hunt would be in a much weaker position than if he had. Group Lotus have operated a road car company during these years and Lotus GT1 Engineering ran a GT programme in the late 1990s. Group Lotus have enforced the Lotus Mark in an automotive context throughout... so would be in quite a strong position.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by davyboy
I'm not so sure its that clear cut. If Hunt had fielded a Formula One team called 'Team Lotus' during the intervening period, then it probably would be. But he didn't. In fact he did nothing whatsoever with the name.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Didn't he own Team Lotus for its last few races?

Indeed he did.... and introduced Mika Sala to F1. (In the Team Lotus administrators sale of assetts Johnny Herbert's Lotus contract was sold to Tom Walkinshaw who owned Ligier at the time. He actually drove for Ligier at the European GP in 1994, replacing Eric Bernard who I think took Johnny's place at Lotus for the race. David Hunt ran and entered the Team Lotus for the Japanese and Australian races to see out 1994, after which the team folded. In 1995 Team Lotus was finished but they were connected to F1 via an alliance with the Pacific Team.

[E.B]

Apologies to Duke_Toaster.....

Re my post above, I made the above post to confirm your thoughts, when I read them on the previous page, without realising the thread had turned a page and you had already covered the end 1994 Hunt run Lotus era and Pacific alliance in detail. By the time I noticed my error, the system would not let me edit or delete my now uneeded post ;

[VIVA GT]

There would appear to me no ceiling to Danny Bahar's ambitions: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88635

[Nortad]

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

There would appear to me no ceiling to Danny Bahar's ambitions: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88635

Amazing posturing... he's looks like he's getting ready for all out war doesn't he.

[Fox89]

davyboy, in regards to your point about the trademark being invalidated due to non-enforcement, saveteamlotus.com has this:

In 1996 Team Lotus applied for a Class 35 registration and Group Lotus opposed the application.

Group Lotus also took Team Lotus to the UK trade mark courts with applications for Team Lotus's UK trade mark registrations to be revoked on the grounds of non-use (for at least 5 years) in 1998, 2002, 2008 and 2010. Sometimes these applications were for more than one trade mark to be revoked. Group's applications were not successful.

Group Lotus initiated these hostile actions despite the fact that it is bound by a long-standing contractual obligation to provide Team Lotus with written consent to register worldwide the trade marks of Team Lotus and to remove from the register any Group Lotus trade mark specifications for single seater racing cars.

If this is all accurate then it sounds like Team Lotus are fine in that regard (Big if of course without sources). Perhaps they've been using the trademark over the years in a minor capacity somewhere? Not sure how it all works.

Amazing posturing... he's looks like he's getting ready for all out war doesn't he.

I didn't realise Group has so much money kicking about! I thought they were barely making profits on road car sales... I guess maybe all these motorsports forays are coming from the Malaysian taxpayer?

[Marbot]

A rather lengthy explanation of trademarks.

See sections entitled: "Maintaining rights" >

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Amazing posturing... he's looks like he's getting ready for all out war doesn't he.

Thinking about it now, all of his posturing and outlandish claims reminds me of what Simon Gillette said he was going to do with Donington Park...

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I'm not sure he does. It hinges on whether the Team Lotus name was used recently or not... Another thing, a small team like Fernandes' would be better advised to spend their tight resources on racing rather than litigation.

Hunt owned Team Lotus for their last two GPs in 1994. Team and Group are two different entities with a different heritage. So that's a double knot against Bahar. Team Lotus stands to profit very handsomely from any legal proceedings.

I also expect the FIA will intervene before the season starts.

Where Fernandes is vulnerable is if some top Malaysian official leans on him. I'm not confident whether Renault will offer the same engine support for the two teams either. They may try to wiggle out of their contract with TL if not before 2011 then after that season.