TGF's Monaco "pole" at 43...

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

... would be like:

• Peter Collins setting a pole in 1974
• Jim Clark setting a pole in 1981
• Bruce McLaren in 1982
• Jochen Rindt and Ricardo Rodriguez in 1985
• Chris Amon, François Cevert and Ronnie Peterson in 1987
• James Hunt in 1991
• Gilles Villeneuve in 1993
• Didier Pironi in 1995
• Alain Prost in 1998
• Hector Rebaque in 1999
• Elio de Angelis in 2001
• Andrea de Cesaris in 2002
• Ayrton Senna in 2003
• Mike Thackwell in 2004
• JJ Letho in 2009
• Mika Häkkinen in 2011
• Jacques Villeneuve in 2014
• Jos Verstappen in 2015
• Jan Magnussen in 2016
• Tora Takagi in 2017
• Ralf Schumacher in 2018
• Juan Pablo Montoya in 2019
• Mark Webber in 2020
• Esteban Tuero in 2021
• Jenson Button in 2023
• Fernando Alonso in 2024
• Christian Klien in 2026
• Robert Kubica in 2028
• Sebastian Vettel in 2030
• Sebastien Buemi in 2031
• Daniel Ricciardo in 2032
• Sergio Perez in 2033

The only three drivers who have set a pole in a F1 World Championship race after the age of 43 are:

• Jack Brabham(last pole at 44 - Jarama 1970)
• Juan-Manuel Fangio(last at 46 - Buenos Aires 1958)
• Giuseppe Farina(last at 47 - Buenos Aires 1954)

The only four drivers who have won a F1 World Championship race after the age of 43 are:

• Piero Taruffi(last and only win at 45 - Bremgarten 1952)
• Juan-Manuel Fangio(last at 46 - Nurburgring 1957)
• Giuseppe Farina(last at 46 - Nurburgring 1953)
• Luigi Fagioli(last and only at 53 - Reims 1951)

The only driver who has won an F1 World Championship after the age of 43 is:

• Juan-Manuel Fangio(1955 at 44, 1956 at 45, 1957 at 46)

[Bononi]

Aaaahnnn ???

Monaco ? When ? Isn't he retiring at the end of the season ?

I'm not sure what you mean...

[Peat]

He means TGF's achievement at this years Monaco GP and comparing it to others.

Personally, i think they are some cool stats that put some nice perspective on it.

[chillibowl]

it was an impressive lap but does he still get credit for it due to the grid penalty?

however those are some interesting numbers. its crazy to think Perez and others could potentially be racing F1 into the 2030's.

[nicanary]

It shows how physically fit MS is for his age. But it's no point comparing drivers from other eras; we all know that doesn't work.

The physical requirements for a driver today are far different from those in Fangio's day. In addition, many drivers from every decade had less chance to progress in F1 because of all sorts of reasons, not least sponsorship. So they never had the chance to "hang around".

Still, it might be a while before we get anyone else in F1 who can achieve that in his 40s.

[Bononi]

There was no "pole" for him at Monaco and that's what will go down at the stats for all that is official.

Too much TGF to my taste...

[davyboy]

On his repêchage, he may be past his prime, but to be able to compete with the world's best, in contemporary F1 cars, aged 43 is a truly stupendous achievement. That he managed a pole at Monaco this year was incredible. You've got to wonder what he might have been able to accomplish through the rest of the season had the Merc been any good.

Nicanary is right... you can't really compare drivers across era... in particular those from the 1950s/1960s where driving racing cars was a 'sport' confined to the uber rich only... and in most case they weren't a picture of good health or fitness either.

[paddy]

Originally Posted by davyboy

On his repêchage, he may be past his prime, but to be able to compete with the world's best, in contemporary F1 cars, aged 43 is a truly stupendous achievement. That he managed a pole at Monaco this year was incredible. You've got to wonder what he might have been able to accomplish through the rest of the season had the Merc been any good.

Nicanary is right... you can't really compare drivers across era... in particular those from the 1950s/1960s where driving racing cars was a 'sport' confined to the uber rich only... and in most case they weren't a picture of good health or fitness either.

Not sure about that at all. Fangio, Clark and Stewart to name three came from pretty ordinary backgrounds and would have a lot less money thrown at them than many of todays drivers who are backed by large corporations from a young age. In addition although G forces were lower in days gone by the races were longer and the cars very physical to drive on bumpy and dusty circuits. Drivers fitness would be different because there wouldn't have been sports scientists and personal trainers to advise, but they still had to be in decent physical shape to be competitive.

[Razzzor]

Drivers these days also start much younger, so it's even harder to compare to the 50's when they were all old geezers like Fangio and Farina. Wasn't Schumacher, at the time, the youngest ever F1 champ in 1994? Probably lost that record to Vettel I'd think.

It makes the stat even more impressive. And Vettel taking pole in 2030? Damn that's 18 years away!!! If he keeps racking up the poles for another 18 years, he'll be well into triple digits.

I think there's very few drivers that could have a career as long as Schumacher. You have to have quite a good resume, probably at least a world champion.

Oh and it doesn't matter if the pole wasn't official. He set still set the fastest time, and it was a legitimate fastest time. Probably only Vettel was the only driver that didn't get what he should have out of his lap. The rest simply weren't able to match Michael's lap. It's the accomplishment that counts.

Actually, thinking back, watching Schumacher's split times and eventually pole lap is probably the highlight of the season for me.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Drivers these days also start much younger, so it's even harder to compare to the 50's when they were all old geezers like Fangio and Farina. Wasn't Schumacher, at the time, the youngest ever F1 champ in 1994? Probably lost that record to Vettel I'd think.

It makes the stat even more impressive. And Vettel taking pole in 2030? Damn that's 18 years away!!! If he keeps racking up the poles for another 18 years, he'll be well into triple digits.

I think there's very few drivers that could have a career as long as Schumacher. You have to have quite a good resume, probably at least a world champion.

Oh and it doesn't matter if the pole wasn't official. He set still set the fastest time, and it was a legitimate fastest time. Probably only Vettel was the only driver that didn't get what he should have out of his lap. The rest simply weren't able to match Michael's lap. It's the accomplishment that counts.

Actually, thinking back, watching Schumacher's split times and eventually pole lap is probably the highlight of the season for me.

Schumacher's pole is the highlight of 2012 for me too.

The qualifying times should stand at the pre-penalty positions for record purposes, the grid is the grid and those are the starting positions, should also show penalties.

Seb in 2030! That is scary!

Thanks W.A Trichlorostyrene - interesting context.

[BSchneiderFan]

Unless I've missed your meaning, some of those dates are a bit off.

[ss_collins]

Mike Thackwell in 2004! thats fun.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Unless I've missed your meaning, some of those dates are a bit off.

Which ones?

Even so, a very thought-inspiring post indeed

[formerf1champ]

Well, considering expectations were a lot higher, after joining the defending champs. One meaningless pole, is another stat people can fawn, unnecessarily, over Schumacher.

Originally Posted by W.A Trichlorostyrene

Alain Prost in 1998

Never mind some flimsy pole position. Taking into account how the 98 season turned out, Prost would've won the title.

Originally Posted by W.A Trichlorostyrene

Mark Webber in 2020

Considering how silly Red Bull are, continuing to offer him single year contracts, this may actually happen.

Originally Posted by davyboy

On his repêchage, he may be past his prime, but to be able to compete with the world's best, in contemporary F1 cars, aged 43 is a truly stupendous achievement. That he managed a pole at Monaco this year was incredible. You've got to wonder what he might have been able to accomplish through the rest of the season had the Merc been any good.

Nicanary is right... you can't really compare drivers across era... in particular those from the 1950s/1960s where driving racing cars was a 'sport' confined to the uber rich only... and in most case they weren't a picture of good health or fitness either.

LOL!

Originally Posted by paddy

Not sure about that at all. Fangio, Clark and Stewart to name three came from pretty ordinary backgrounds and would have a lot less money thrown at them than many of todays drivers who are backed by large corporations from a young age..

From what I know about their backgrounds. Had these drivers become the corporate products typical of today, I suspect it would've stymied their driving development.

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Drivers these days also start much younger, so it's even harder to compare to the 50's when they were all old geezers like Fangio and Farina. Wasn't Schumacher, at the time, the youngest ever F1 champ in 1994? Probably lost that record to Vettel I'd think.

It makes the stat even more impressive.

Emmo was the youngest til Alonso came along. So no, not that impressive.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

it was an impressive lap but does he still get credit for it due to the grid penalty?

He doesn't.

Originally Posted by nicanary

It shows how physically fit MS is for his age. But it's no point comparing drivers from other eras; we all know that doesn't work.

The physical requirements for a driver today are far different from those in Fangio's day. In addition, many drivers from every decade had less chance to progress in F1 because of all sorts of reasons, not least sponsorship. So they never had the chance to "hang around".

Still, it might be a while before we get anyone else in F1 who can achieve that in his 40s.

Well said.

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Unless I've missed your meaning, some of those dates are a bit off.

I think in some cases it might be - or + 1 year, I didn't try to be very precise.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Well, considering expectations were a lot higher, after joining the defending champs. One meaningless pole, is another stat people can fawn, unnecessarily, over Schumacher.

Never mind some flimsy pole position. Taking into account how the 98 season turned out, Prost would've won the title.
Considering how silly Red Bull are, continuing to offer him single year contracts, this may actually happen.


LOL!

From what I know about their backgrounds. Had these drivers become the corporate products typical of today, I suspect it would've stymied their driving development.

Emmo was the youngest til Alonso came along. So no, not that impressive.

This sounds like the written equivalent of constipation

[JohnSSC]

At the risk of "fawning," it was an interesting comparison. No one gets credit for a race win simply because they got the pole (and this one does not count due to the penalty), but it certainly shows that Michael still has the speed. Considering the level of competition against which he set fast lap I think it is an impressive achievement.

[Mr V]

Kind of ironic though that the only real bit of brilliance Michael has shown in the past 3 seasons is in a session that it was known beforehand that he'd be penalised.

[BSchneiderFan]

Stirling Moss taking a pole in 1972 is food for thought too.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Kind of ironic though that the only real bit of brilliance Michael has shown in the past 3 seasons is in a session that it was known beforehand that he'd be penalised.

With anyone else it would be tragic.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Originally Posted by wnut

The qualifying times should stand at the pre-penalty positions for record purposes, the grid is the grid and those are the starting positions, should also show penalties.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by wnut

Seb in 2030! That is scary!

Originally Posted by Razzzor

And Vettel taking pole in 2030? Damn that's 18 years away!!! If he keeps racking up the poles for another 18 years, he'll be well into triple digits.

Considering that he is already 3rd in the all-time stats, with 36, this is very scary indeed.

Granted, today's 20 GP seasons makes it much easier to crank up the stats.

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Stirling Moss taking a pole in 1972 is food for thought too.

That would have been quite remarkable.

Actually, Sir Jack Brabham comes relatively close to this, fighting regularly for wins in 1970 at 44, 15 years after his part-time debut.

[strider]

I haven't seen this anywhere officially yet, but a reliable source on Twitter reports that Mercedes are going to present Schumi with the car with which he set 'pole' position at Monaco when he retires at the end of the season. I'm not one of his fans, but it would be a nice gesture.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by strider

I haven't seen this anywhere officially yet, but a reliable source on Twitter reports that Mercedes are going to present Schumi with the car with which he set 'pole' position at Monaco when he retires at the end of the season. I'm not one of his fans, but it would be a nice gesture.

I have seen it here

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...farewell-gift/

[Javi]

I usually don´t post that much here, but i keep an eye on you, people

Just wanted to say I am enjoying this thread and the discussion it promotes, and the fact that everyone is defending their opinions with humour, education and respect makes it better. Perhaps we can all learn from this one!
Thanks guys!

And, ok, my opinion on this: I am sure that, with a better car, TGF would have won this year, at 43. Why has he stayed for so long when other champions retired earlier and never went back? In my opinion: Hunger. He could have retired in 2002 with 5 WDC, or in 2003 with 6, beating Fangio. But he went on to male it 7, and wanted more! Did everyone that appears on the first post´s list had it? i do not think.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by strider

I haven't seen this anywhere officially yet, but a reliable source on Twitter reports that Mercedes are going to present Schumi with the car with which he set 'pole' position at Monaco when he retires at the end of the season. I'm not one of his fans, but it would be a nice gesture.

1:43 scale, presumably......