Under/Over performing

[Wrex]

I was just reading a thread commenting on team mates. We are only 3 races in, so little can be valuated accurately, but some patterns are emerging. Sometimes though drivers are ether flattered by poor performing team mates, or looking second hand because of team mates star performances.

Its not always a case of leading driver being a star, the loser being below par.

My assessment to date :

Renault : Good example here. Alonso leads Fisi any way you measure it. One could jump in and say Alonso is doing well, Fisi poorly. IMO, Fisi is meeting expectations, while Alonso is over-performing.

Toyota : Again Ralf looks bad here, but personally I think he is doing well, its just that Trulli is doing exceptional.

Williams : Nothing to add here. Neither over or under-performing so far, but are meeting expectations.

Redbull : I'm giving both drivers the thumbs up here. The car is obviously improved, but to me so have both drivers.

Ferrari : Rubins on par at the moment, with Michael under-performing from the standard we have come to expect.

BAR : Cant say I have been impressed either way here. Sort of the opposite to RBR. Car went backwards, and the drivers are a little off also.

Sauber : Villenueve is under-perfoming, Massa over-performing. Unfortunate for JV, but the great drives from Massa are highlighting further the problems JV is having. Hard to pin the blame on the car when your team mate is making lemonade from lemons.

McLaren : Both drivers hiting the average button for me. Neither is showing their true potential, but neither is falling off either. Need to see more.

Jordan and Minardi : Sorry, dont even know who is driving for them these days.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Wrex

Jordan and Minardi : Sorry, dont even know who is driving for them these days.

I think that's slightly harsh - Narain Karthikeyan's driving of the Jordan marks him out as someone who will move up the ranks in the future, in my opinion.

[Wrex]

Not meant as disrespect (but can see how it reads that way), more personal ignorance and less than usefull TV coverage.

[Kicking-back]

Ah! Ok, misunderstood slightly

[KE30MAN]

I agree WREX. It's funny, everybody talked about what a combination Kimi and Juan would be and so far they have done little to get excited about in what is perhaps the fastest car in the field.

[Glen]

I hope McLaren can find that missing qualifying speed and re-awaken Kimi, because at the moment he just isn't driving the team forward in the way that one expects. If that last piece of the engineering puzzle is found, and they are able to qualify as well as they race, then there will be the motivation to do something exceptional - which he is undoubtedly capable of. So far we have not been granted the titanic team-mate battle which the Woking team promised to deliver, and this is a big shame.

Elsewhere - DC is actually living up to his capable experience tag, for which I owe the eating of a nibble of humple pie. Nice one.

Massa quietly getting on with making poor old J look pretty shabby.

Michael Sch just hasn't found his gear - but the Sakhir qualifying was a pretty dtrong marker that things are about to change (provided Bridgestone decide to get going). Rubens, on the other hand, is a delight to watch - MS has a double battle for once I do believe... he must get the car working and thereby start challenging the field, AND he does have a strong challenge from Rubens. Rubens will have a much better qualifying start than Micheal next race too.

Trulli is thoroughly excellent - well deserved podiums. Vs Ralf who looks worse than ever to me.

It is a bit harsh to criticise BAR, in my view, the car is terrible - slow and unreliable.

[Adam RR]

I think it comes down to expectations really.

For me, being a staunch Mark Webber fan I'd have to say that a 5th, DNF and 6th is a little disappointing..under the unusual circumstances this season has started off with. 3 months ago however, if I'd been told of his first 3 races with williams' results I'd have been stoked for him...

Very interesting to watch the battles of Heidfeld VS Webber, Montoya VS Raikkonen, Ralph VS Trulli and Massa's ass whooping of JV though. I was really looking forward to these battles during the off season and I haven't been disapointed yet!

Renault and RBR get the biggest thumbs up for me so far and the biggest thumbs down would have to go to BAR Honda I guess... Back to 2002/3 for them...

Really happy for DC though, always liked him but I expected him to have an embarrassing year this year... Much more than a nibble of Humble Pie for me I think

Anyway, Hi and great forum you guys have here... I've been lercking for a while now but have obviously only just decided to step and say G'day..

Can't wait for Imola

[Glen]

Wotcha Adam. Always happy to say hi to a fellow Webber fan. I draw the line at G'day though - damn, said it.

[hamsmith]

Originally Posted by Wrex

BAR : Cant say I have been impressed either way here. Sort of the opposite to RBR. Car went backwards, and the drivers are a little off also.

I agree with all your driver statments execpt we haven't really seen much of the bars on the tv coverage other than to see them blow up so it's hard to really tell, that and the fact Sato had only contested 2 out of 3 races.As for the car going backwards i don't think they ever went forward , more the other teams made a poor effort last year and couldn't afford to be embarrassed again this year.

[av8rirl]

Originally Posted by Wrex

Sauber : Villenueve is under-perfoming, Massa over-performing. Unfortunate for JV, but the great drives from Massa are highlighting further the problems JV is having. Hard to pin the blame on the car when your team mate is making lemonade from lemons.

Haven't commented on JV before and I'm not turning this into a JV bash but if you just take a look at JV's CV, it reads as follows;

1996 - P2 - 78PTS
1997 - P1 - 81PTS
1998 - P5 - 21 PTS
1999 - Not even classified
2000 - P7 - 17PTS
2001 - P7 - 12PTS
2002 - P12 - 4PTS
2003 - P16 - 6PTS

With the exception of his first two years in F1, JV has been on a consistent downward spiral.

So going back to the original statement that JV is under-performing, I have to say that I for one am not surprised.

I think Massa was probably under-rated by most.

[Dixie Flatline]

Harsh that JV has been on a "consistent" downward spiral.

The 1999 BAR was a dog of a car that was unreliable to boot. Neither Villeneuve nor Zonta had much of a chance to score points in that car.

The 1998 Williams was inferior to the 1998 McLaren and Ferrari. Villeneuve's thenteammate, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, scored 15 points in 1998.

There's been a debate over whether Button beat Jacques in '03. JV had the worse of the reliability, but Button had a good season in a poorly performing car.

[Jordi]

I think Massa was under-rated, including by me.

But Jacques is not over yet. Some forum members would already have fired him but Sauber is not a forum member, and Jacques has said he is a lot more confident with the car. He was a lot closer to Massa's times in Bahrain, and while I expected him to be ahead of Felipe, it is an improvement over the first 2 rounds.

[senna12]

teammates so far;

Alonso over Fisi; relentlessly quick with fewer mistakes
Trulli over Ralf; much the same reason, particularly qualifying
Montoya over Kimi; up until the injury, anyway
Coulthard over Klien; experience = points
Heidfeld over Webber; by just a bit, but Nick less ragged
Barrichello over Michael; getting more from less so far
Massa over Villeneuve; obviously
Button over Sato; doesn't mean much with 0 points
Karthikeyan over Monteiro; the little Indian does not look out of place
Albers over Friesacher; hard to tell, you never actually see them during a race

I also think Massa was a bit underrated, similar to Klien.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by hamsmith

I agree with all your driver statments execpt we haven't really seen much of the bars on the tv coverage other than to see them blow up so it's hard to really tell, that and the fact Sato had only contested 2 out of 3 races.As for the car going backwards i don't think they ever went forward , more the other teams made a poor effort last year and couldn't afford to be embarrassed again this year.

I agree and I would go as far to say that Button was impressive in Bahrain as that car was awful by many accounts, and he looked very racy in the 3 laps he lasted in Malaysia.

[Snrub]

Alonso - About where he should be, maybe a little better.
Fisi - Stinking, what gives?
Trulli - Above expectations.
Ralf - A little slow.
Kimi - Fine, but nothing spectacular yet.
JPM - Underwelming.
Webber - How I expected.
Heidfeld - How I expected, but I think he's a slight overperformer.
MS - Under performing.
Rubins - Has had a lot of difficulties that haven't been his fault, still underperforming a little though.
Massa - Over performing.
JV - Under performing.
DC - Over performing.
Klien - Over performing.
Button - As expected.
Sato - As expected.
Karthikeyan - Over performing.
Monterio - As expected.
Minardi drivers - Dunno.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by Snrub

Fisi - Stinking, what gives?

Hmmm.. Stinking? What gives? How about a race win, a broken wing and a blown engine?

[Adam43]

I think far from Stinking too, I agree with Wrex. Fisi is being good as expected. Alonso is being amazing, over my expectations.

[Wrex]

Fisi is doing very well, Alonso is just doing it better (and with more luck).

Still finding it hard to swallow Nick ahead of Webber, when at no point was Nick leading when one retired. Is maiking less mistakes though.

Harsh on the JV stats too. Did Alonso become 10 times the driver at Renault from Minardi where he scored no points? The BAR was never as good as the championship winning Williams. That said, he has still been a massive disappointment this season and the last.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by av8rirl

1999 - Not even classified

True, but he put in some great qually and races, only for his car to die on him.

99 Australia-qualified 6th, running 4th, rear wing failure.

99 Imola-qualified 4th, didn't even get off the start line.

99 Nurburgring-qualified 8th ahead of both Ferrari's and a Jordan, running 5th, hydraulics failure.

Although he didnt score points, he smased Zonta and put in some storming drives in a dog of a car that was no better than its predecessor, the 1998 Tyrrell.

Agreed that Massa is under rated though. I thought he overall at least broke even with Fisi in 04.

[BootsOntheSide]

Some time ago a points system was used for this type of thread, where 3 represented a massive over-performing, -2 a massive under-performing, and 0 was neutral. So:

Michael 0
Rubens -1 (poor tyre choice in Malaysia cancels out strong Melbourne drive)
Button 1 (has looked racy while the car's lasted)
Sato 0 (too early to say much)
Alonso 3 (faultless)
Fisichella 1 (struggled in Bahrain and was probably at fault in Malaysia)
Webber 0 (a little ragged but certainly fast)
Heidfeld 1 (quietly impressive)
Kimi 2 (deserves much better results)
JPM 1 (steady but unspectacular)
JV -2 (surely on his last legs now)
Massa 1 (another great start to the season; can he keep it up?)
DC 2 (rejouvinated and impressive)
Klien 2 (we all misunderestimated him)
Trulli 3 (sensational in the last 2 races)
Ralf -1 (mdoerately impressive, but certainly the Toyota #2)
Karthikeyan 2 (looks like a star of the future)
Montiero 0 (largely anonymous)
Albers 1 (the better Mianrdi driver, although with mroe pre-season testing)
Friesacher 0 (a shame he went off on oil when fast in Malaysia - otehrwise mediocre)

[mixxer]

I'm interested how members reach their conclusions, using their heads or hearts ?

[Rick]

I'll bite!
Webber has out qualified Nick 5-1 (albeit pretty close, tho' the one was more to do with starting order) and Nick is yet to be in front during a race - except about 5 seconds when Ralf nearly punted MW, and about 100 yards at the start in Bahrain, before he was beaten into the first corner - so I really don't see where Nick is outperforming MW.
If anything, the one question mark about Webber was just how fast he was, given his "inferior" teammates (or preferential treatment or etc etc). I think he has shown in Quals and especially that lap in practice at Bahrain that he is fast - very.

[f1manoz]

Renault: Alonso on top, but Fisichella has been driving as expected.

Toyota: Trulli sensational, Ralf is Ralf

Williams: Fairly even, though Heidfeld has certainly given Webber a wake-up call

McLaren: Average so far. Need to improve qualifying as the race pace is there

Ferrari: Nowhere really. Slow, then last race unreliable

BAR: Laughable. Button trying but getting nowhere. Sato doing as expected

Red Bull: Story of the season so far. DC doing superbly. Feel sorry for Klien being dumped

Sauber: Massa doing well, JV struggling. Car's a dog

Jordan: Narain looks the goods. Monteiro disappointing

Minardi: They're on the grid?

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Hmmm.. Stinking? What gives? How about a race win, a broken wing and a blown engine?

Alonso is doing a fine job, but he's got the best car so I'm not going to get histerical with excitement because he's doing well. The last two races Fisi has been WAY behind Alonso and slower cars have been ahead, both in qualifying and on the track. I'm not going to make a big fuss about the end results, but Fisi is not where he should be.

[Inigo Montoya]

Hmmm... again:
1)Win in Australia.
2)Had coming together in Malaysia while trying to defend his position because he was suffering from massive understeer due a flap on the front wing that had become detached from the main plate.
3) Punished by early qualy spot in Bahrain, then had engine failure (and Renault is now saying that he had the engine problem right from the start).

Sorry, but that does not add up to "stinking" any way you measure it.