Anglesey First Meeting

[Alan Raine]

Couldn't go due to work commitments.

Who did what and what do people think of it?

[youngoldy]

I really enjoyed it, despite how compact the testing went, with only 30 mins prep for each session on thursday, but friday was abit better. The only problem with friday was with people learning the track on that day, and then there were those who tested on thursday who were going full blast, there were a couple of close calls.

And there were even competitors turning up on the saturday morning to qualify without testing.

I really can't understand though why after only 2 laps, the CoC declared the race a result. OK, the timetable was running behind, rain was predicted for sunday, and it looked very unlikely that we would be able to fit our race in between. Why not run the race at another Anglesey meeting later in he year or at Oulton. We have lost hat opportunity now.

A thing that really angered alot of people this weekend were the lack of blue flags from the marshals, of which I must have only seen about 3 all weekend.

The track itself is great. My favorite corner, from cycling around it, has to be the tight left hander at the end of the back straight. I can't believe how lucky we were with the weather, it only rained once while on track, but the Post89 race looked a very tricky race, with a last minute setup decision by all.

Looking forward to July.

[Hepatic]

depends how hard you were looking for blues, i threw plenty from the exit of the banking...

[Ian Sowman]

Blue flagging was a bit patchy, I have to say - but I only particularly noticed it yesterday and it probably is no different to any other meeting. It is a difficult art and not as easy as it looks from the other side of the fence. Remember that unlike a 'casual' spectator, a flag marshal can't follow a race all round the lap - he has to look at what is specifically going on around him, so he won't get such a good picture of how the race is unfolding. Also, if you follow a particular championship and know the cars very well, then you'll spot when a blue flag is needed much more easily than if you don't (as many marshals would not).

As for declaring a result after two laps... Well, they ran to the curfew both days so the decision not to re-run was proved right. And given that the race had already started and that under the blue book the result *could* be declared for full points, it would have been horrendously unfair to rearrange the race until another date (if it is possible at all) as some competitors may not have been able to attend. Nothing to stop an extra non-championship race being run at some point though...

[Mark Mitchell]

For what it's worth......the driving standards from many of the FF drivers was appalling. (To be honest, driving standards generally across the whole programme were shambolic)
New track and everything excepted, but there was no apparent slowing for yellows and the incidents at Rocket were probably avoidable.

[youngoldy]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Blue flagging was a bit patchy, I have to say - but I only particularly noticed it yesterday and it probably is no different to any other meeting. It is a difficult art and not as easy as it looks from the other side of the fence. Remember that unlike a 'casual' spectator, a flag marshal can't follow a race all round the lap - he has to look at what is specifically going on around him, so he won't get such a good picture of how the race is unfolding. Also, if you follow a particular championship and know the cars very well, then you'll spot when a blue flag is needed much more easily than if you don't (as many marshals would not).

As for declaring a result after two laps... Well, they ran to the curfew both days so the decision not to re-run was proved right. And given that the race had already started and that under the blue book the result *could* be declared for full points, it would have been horrendously unfair to rearrange the race until another date (if it is possible at all) as some competitors may not have been able to attend. Nothing to stop an extra non-championship race being run at some point though...

As a fully qualified marshal that I am, and not wanting to sound big headed, I think I would notice a car cornering 10mph slower than any other, if they had a missfire which would beb a factor to saying that that particular car is slower than other cars around him/her. I once did a trackday at Croft where I had to give the blue flag out all the time. You can just tell who is quick from their lines, engine revs and how late they are braking. Fair enough, if I were to marshal say the Ford Xr challenge, I wouldn't know who was leading, unless the name Robinson was on the side of a car.

I timed Nigel in race 1 with the difference between him and Lee whilst lapping backmarkers. Going out of sight through Rocket, and appearing again through the Corkscrew, he lost two seconds of his lead to Lee, purely from no blue flags at the top of the circuit, and the backmarkers making it very difficult for the race leaders to pass. Nigel sadly spent some time last year being given the blue flag, and knows its difficult to get completely out of the way of the race leader. But when no blue flags were being given to the backmarkers, it must be impossible for the backmarkers to know that the race leaders were behind you when there wasn't a car in you mirrors 3 or 4 seconds earlier.

[Walshy]

Also.

If we are quoting the Blue Book here, why were the Sunday races not given 2Warm up laps? Especially the Pre '90 FF's.

Race conditions were significantly different compared to qualifying, yet only the standard pace lap was given. The official line on a couple of cars spinning on the wet pace lap?????? "They should slow down then"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great pearls of wisdom eh????????

Some of the officiating left a lot to be desired also.

Two drivers called up. Driver A and Driver B. Driver A reported of passing Driver B under yellows. Driver B defends Driver A by saying it was himself who did the passing. Which observer was watching that one? Obviously not the same one who was watching the 3rd place Pre'90 car in race 1 blatantly get "biffed" out of the way, yet nothing was done other than a talking to. No points deducted. No positions removed.

You complain about driving standards yet they are not enforced correctly. When we tried to have DSO's (Driving Standards Officers) to aid the Observers in decisions, it was frowned upon.

[greenboy]

Having just paid about £1500 to go racing this weekend I feel that I have treated as usual by the BRSCC as second class citizen.To be told that I cannot finish my race on Saturday because of my poor driving standards is grossly annoying.Any excuse will do.BRSCC's over crammed programme resulted in the race being cancelled and cancelled it was, a race cannot be won in 3 laps.To also put the second race at 4pm the following day is farcical.I have paid for 2 races that weekend and that should have included 2 qualifying sessions which would have at least given me something to do on Sunday morning instead of watching other competitors arrive,qualify and go home.May be if the BRSCC entourage did not all have to stay at one of the top hotels on the island ,for which we are paying ,they may be able have a schedule that is organised in everybodies interest and a programme that can be maintained given any extenuating circumstances that often happen at race meetings.Finally message for Mr Shortis ,the Moose Unit is for ff drivers not tintops,please let them stay under their own awning we are quite happy on our own.I know what this is heading towards,Diz don't become a Shortis Lapdog, Formula Ford wants to remain independent for the other Ford series.

[Asp]

As regards the marshalling - although I wasn't there I was aware there were not a large number of bodies (far too many meetings over the weekend, including one at Oulton so the NW marshalling force was divided).

I stand to be corrected, but I guess therefore that most flaggies were on their own - so rightly would be concentrating on the yellow flag. Would you rather see a yellow flag to let you know you need to slow down / maybe take an alternative line or a blue flag to advise you that a faster car is approaching?
Similarly, I guess a lot of flaggies were also observing; probably vice-versa. Trying to do both duties is difficult - you see some contact of whatever required a report, by the time you've written it you can have lost the track of the race.
And to take Walshy's point, certainly some "ungraded" observers would have been given the duty so it would only be expected for the standard of reports might not to have been as high as we've come to expect from Oulton with a large number of observers. The major point with reports is though is that it's only one piece of evidence...

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by youngoldy

As a fully qualified marshal that I am, and not wanting to sound big headed,

In this context, I assume 'fully qualified' means that you have flag (blue) grade? OK, here's a suggestion. We're very short of marshals for next weekend's CSCC meeting at Anglesey. Why don't you come along & help out? This would have two benefits; firstly, it would help with marshal numbers, secondly it would give us the chance to gaze in awe at your superior blue-flagging skills.

Fair enough, if I were to marshal say the Ford Xr challenge, I wouldn't know who was leading, unless the name Robinson was on the side of a car.

Hmm......

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

In this context, I assume 'fully qualified' means that you have flag (blue) grade? OK, here's a suggestion. We're very short of marshals for next weekend's CSCC meeting at Anglesey. Why don't you come along & help out? This would have two benefits; firstly, it would help with marshal numbers, secondly it would give us the chance to gaze in awe at your superior blue-flagging skills.



Hmm......

I don't think there is any need to be sarcastic there.

There was a severe lack of blue flags being shown. Stuart Gough nearly lost his lead as he came across 4 side by side back markers coming into the corkscrew. No flags were waved at all. And for sure, the difference in speeds must have been apparent to the most inexperienced of marshall. Quite frankly it borders on the dangerous.

It is a bit annoying as if a driver is innatentive he will be called up by the C of C for a talk. I have never heard of a marshall being 'talked to' for being less tha 100% on the ball.

Having said that, it must have felt like a very long day as there were no marshalls posts with any form of shelter, so on that basis well done all you guys and girls.

On another point, lets hope that the grass grows soon off track, as there were a few rocks being thrown up as James Cole will tell you. He was knocked out by a rock that destroyed his helmet. Lucky it wasn't his visor.......

[Walshy]

I got to see the Anglesey weekend from a different perspective. I was not competing and was watching things unfold as an observer/spectator.

The main problem I saw over the whole weekend was the attitude of the BRSCC officials towards competitors. Any other little problems were acceptable due to the nature of this being a new circuit and there were inevitably, going to be some minor teething problems. But certain things were irrelevant of this fact.

Firstly, I did notice as I have noticed on many occasions, the speed at which the course cars were leaving the pitlane and the speed at which they drove the circuit. They, of all people should be the most careful as when they are on the track, so are the Marshals and recovery crews. On one particular occasions on Saturday afternoon, I was stood in the pitlane only to see one of the course cars (I won't name and shame the driver) head up the pitlane as though he was taking a race start!!!!!! Several people diving out of his way as he went. Had that been a single seater driver then I'm sure action would have been taken.

Secondly, I witnessed a number of competitors engaged in conversation with the officials over differing incidents and the attitude of some of these officials was shocking. Let's just say that on one occasion, the official was lucky he wasn't thumped. Not that I condone that sort of thing, but he really was quite arrogant with the competitor and it just simply wasn't on.

Finally, I have been a member of the BRSCC for many many years now and consider myself as part of the club, but the BRSCC is sometimes skating on thin ice in it's dealings with it's competitors, especially in the face of the likes of the Anglesey Circuit Club and the MSV Club.

This is not an attack on the Club, I for one want to see it grow and thrive. Indeed, the club has been very accomodating with me recently following a short illness, but we always end up having the same sort of feedback. The attitude towards it's members by some of it's public facing officials is sometimes shocking.

Talk about bite the hand that feeds.

[diz]

Originally Posted by greenboy

To be told that I cannot finish my race on Saturday because of my poor driving standards is grossly annoying..

Dave,
Firstly, people might have noticed that my tenths participation has become very limited these days. I watch, but rarely post, but I do listen. I might have chosen the wrong platform to mention driving standards at the prizegiving, but I had spent two days running the testing and the driving standards displayed {by all classes, not just FF} was absolutely atrocious. OK so it was a new circuit to all and a bit of slack needed to be cut on both sides, but rules and safety considerations don't change. The following is not Formula Ford specific.
What excuse is there for :
1. Overtaking / racing out of the Pit Lane and crossing the yellow line in the process.
2. Running the first two laps of the first test sessions under waved yellow flags to use them as "sighting laps" seemed a good idea at the time. Drivers spinning in these circumstances shouldn't have been happening - but did.
3. Five drivers in one of the saloon sessions just overtook everything in sight on these two laps, stating that they didn't think yellow flags mattered in this scenario. Frightening isn't it to let these sort of people out in racing cars. It sure as hell frightens me.
4. I could go on and on.
BTW I seem to remember one Formula Ford driver overtaking throughout a three lap qualifying behind a pace car situation not so long ago. Do you Dave?

Originally Posted by greenboy

Finally message for Mr Shortis ,the Moose Unit is for ff drivers not tintops,please let them stay under their own awning we are quite happy on our own.

The Moose Unit is towed to circuits by me. The FF1600 awning is towed in another trailer - also by me. Kevin suggested we worked out of his awning to save me having to drive to Anglesey with one trailer, then return to Cheshire to collect the other trailer. This process being repeated after the meeting. A sensible suggestion that you shouldn't read anything into.
This "trailer double shuftying" isn't a problem for me at Oulton with it only being 15 miles from home.

[StephenRae]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Having just paid about £1500 to go racing this weekend I feel that I have treated as usual by the BRSCC as second class citizen.To be told that I cannot finish my race on Saturday because of my poor driving standards is grossly annoying.Any excuse will do.BRSCC's over crammed programme resulted in the race being cancelled and cancelled it was, a race cannot be won in 3 laps.To also put the second race at 4pm the following day is farcical.I have paid for 2 races that weekend and that should have included 2 qualifying sessions which would have at least given me something to do on Sunday morning instead of watching other competitors arrive,qualify and go home.May be if the BRSCC entourage did not all have to stay at one of the top hotels on the island ,for which we are paying ,they may be able have a schedule that is organised in everybodies interest and a programme that can be maintained given any extenuating circumstances that often happen at race meetings.Finally message for Mr Shortis ,the Moose Unit is for ff drivers not tintops,please let them stay under their own awning we are quite happy on our own.I know what this is heading towards,Diz don't become a Shortis Lapdog, Formula Ford wants to remain independent for the other Ford series.

I agree with all of this, we were 'luckier' in the pre 90 race as we were on first. Unfortunately with help from the Welsh cultural attache I have the unenviable record of being the first car to be damaged in the first race at the new circuit!
What I take exception to was the grid order for the second race being dictated by the finishing order of the first race. Not only unfair...what has one round of the championship got to do with the next? And what was the point of recording the second best practice times if they were not going to be used to decide the order of the second race?
Had there been a very serious incident at the start of our Sunday race the officials would have had to do some fast talking to explain why it was OK for us to launch ourselves at the first corner for the first time any of us had been round there in the wet in racing conditions, if ever there was a need for two warm up laps that was it.
None of my griping should take away from the fact that all concerned with the development of the new circuit have done a fabulous job and are to be congratulated.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

I don't think there is any need to be sarcastic there.

I didn't mean it to come across as sarcastic - ironic, maybe!

It's a genuine offer - I have two spare tickets available for anyone who fancies a weekend's marshalling!

[diz]

The Anglesey Race Reports and Championship Points are now online at
http://www.clubformulaford.info/docu...0507Report.pdf
and
http://www.clubformulaford.info/docu...sto27MAY07.pdf

[Alan Raine]

Thanks Diz

[JimW]

Interesting. I hope there is a through learning session for many people before the BARC meeting at the end of June.

A couple of points which some people seem to find difficult to grasp:

When you don't have two flag marshals at a post, then blue flagging is not done or becomes a very secondary priority.

When a group of marshals which can just about barely marshal one meeting at Oulton Park is split into two to marshal Oulton Park and Anglesey on the same day then each circuit is likely to be only half of barely manned. Or is this too difficult for some people to understand?

Regards

Jim

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by diz

The Anglesey Race Reports and Championship Points are now online at
http://www.clubformulaford.info/docu...0507Report.pdf
and
http://www.clubformulaford.info/docu...sto27MAY07.pdf

How come they are up before the Mids-South from last week?

Maybe all the Midlands drivers should get a £50 rebate from their registration fee, the £50 to cover the site?

[PaulPerkins]

Originally Posted by JimW

When you don't have two flag marshals at a post, then blue flagging is not done or becomes a very secondary priority.

Glad you mentioned this, Jim. As you mentioned, if there are two flaggies, the job of one of them is to monitor downstream and hang the appropriate yellow. The job of the other is to monitor upstream, and hang green or blue.

If you are the sole flaggy, blueing *has* to become secondary, as the workload is huge: at my post, Point 9, for instance, you're looking in 8 different places around the elevated section (I counted them just now!) to judge which flags might be appropriate.

Plus I'd rather *not* blue than to blue incorrectly (as I did many times - car 84, red Escort springs to mind... )

[youngoldy]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

How come they are up before the Mids-South from last week?

Maybe all the Midlands drivers should get a £50 rebate from their registration fee, the £50 to cover the site?

5.33: Hmmm, thats weired. I managed to download the MS and NW reports today at college, but they don't appear to be able to donwload from home. The points were put up before, and now they are not.

But as you say John, why the MS should have to wait a while for their report to be put up a week after the event, and the NW gets theres within days. I suppose as long as they got done, then your getting what you paid for.

5.37: If you load the 'Race Reports' page up, and if the reports are there, then open them. If not, click 'Refresh' on Internet Explorer, or 'Reload current page' on Mozilla Firefox, that seems to open them up, and the same for the points table.

[JohnMiller]

Thanks, although I'm not sure my facetious post deserved such a good reply.

[kartingdad]

Yeah, I'm not sure it should have as well....

[Meanie]

Having read all the comments regarding the first meeting at Anglesey I was a little dismaid at the number of negative comments.
Perhaps I am one of those to blame for the need for blue flags,(?!!) and a lack of budget precludes attending test sessions - if those at the back of the grid are such a difficulty for those at the front, perhaps we should only allow the top ten qualifiers to race? I try very hard to keep out of the way of the faster racers, but sometimes, lack of ability gets in the way. Please let me know if you want me to move to another championship (No 67)??
Blaming the marshalls - it is too easy to forget that these officials are all volunteers there to help us enjoy the race...or am I missing the point with just trying to have a bit of fun?
Finishing 15th on Saturday placed me in the unenviable postition of having much faster competitors behind me at the start. I have already campaigned to the WHT to reverse this trend as it gives no competitor a sensible chance during the following race, in fact it is a hinderance to those of us at the back of the grid! StephenRae has got is spot on - why should the fortuitous race result of one day be the decider for the grid the following day? Makes no sense! Second qulaifying time would be much more credible.
Oooh, and back to the original topic for this thread, the circuit was just great! I loved all of it - the banked hairpin, the fast sweeping right and the long 'straight' with the kink at the end - it really tested the late braking. Not sure about corkscrew as this seemed a little twisty to really conjure any opportunity to pass but great to drive.
The circuit will be even better when is has some grass!

One gripe - For those that arrive the night before a race, please leave enough room for a small one!

[flying muppet]

Having just read this thread, I find it pretty disappointing to read of the 'public' criticism of the flagging at this meeting, especially considering that I thought that there was a very strong and healthy relationship between the NW marshals and the NWFF competitors...

So, to put things in perspective, let's consider the following:

1. Marshal numbers were particularly low for this meeting - for example, I had only 4 observers to cover 11 marshals posts. That means that for the other 7 marshals posts I had to ask the single flag marshal on that post to not only be responsible for the blue flag (looking up the track), but also the yellow flag (looking down the track), but ALSO to observe as well - that means writing formal reports of ALL instances of contact, overtaking under yellows etc, whilst also radioing in those reports PLUS all instances of 4 wheels off and spins. I'm sure you guys would be the first to admit that your races & qualifying session were busy to say the least - there were many spins and no end of cars running off the circuit. The radio was non stop. Whether you like it or not, given the 3 tasks of yellow flag, blue flag and observing, the blue flag task will always be a lower priority than the others - fact. Tell you what, try it yourselves...

So why were there so few marshals? A conflicting high-profile meeting at Oulton Park didn't help things at all - we can blame the organising clubs for that - but it won't be the last time it happens (30 June is the next clash). Additionally, people just won't travel - it was always difficult to 'man' the old Anglesey circuit - that had 7 posts. We've now got 11 posts (coastal) or 15 - 16 (International) - just do the maths.

As an aside on marshal numbers, we ran a CSCC meeting on the Coastal circuit yesterday with only 28 trackside marshals to cover 11 posts...

We have been highlighting the diminishing numbers of marshals for ages - perhaps some support from the drivers would help since this thread is obviously an indication of what happens when the numbers drop.

Other points:

Several of the marshal's posts positions do not give a clear view of the circuit prior to the previous post, thus making the judgement call of when to show a blue or not that much more difficult; we can't do anything about that.

I was at the Corkscrew over this weekend in question; I spoke to 2 FF drivers about the new circuit - when they asked where I was marshalling and I told them, they both asked in all seriousness where the marshals were at that corner. My point therefore is that if drivers don't even know where the flag signals are going to appear from (despite green flags on the first lap of qualifying / green flag lap) then there's clearly less likelihood of them being seen at all.

At Oulton Park, you know where the flags will appear from - at a new circuit you won't initially.

If anyone has gripes with the marshalling standards, please take it up with the marshals' club - tell you what, send me a PM and I'll investigate things for you personally and give you an answer.

But public slagging off helps nothing...


From 'Pi$$ed off of Shropshire'