Chevron B48

[driftwood]

steve did sell 1 b48 car to alan de wagter
alan now has 2 b48 cars 1 with 1600 bda reputed ex rahal car other has 420r in it

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

steve did sell 1 b48 car to alan de wagter
alan now has 2 b48 cars 1 with 1600 bda reputed ex rahal car other has 420r in it

Steve was running B48-79-01 at Prescott so -03 must be the one sold to de Wagter.

[Jeremy Jackson]

There is currently an advert on the EuropeanF2 website by de Wagter for chassis 03 & 07, with a pic of car minus sidepods. Contact details are for Steve & Alain, but don't know how long the ad has actually been there.

[driftwood]

its about 6 -12 months old de wagter bought f1 car and was looking to out the f2 cars

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Jackson

There is currently an advert on the EuropeanF2 website by de Wagter for chassis 03 & 07, with a pic of car minus sidepods. Contact details are for Steve & Alain, but don't know how long the ad has actually been there.

Thats odd, I thought we'd confirmed one of the Huub cars was downunder ??

[allenbrown]

Anyone feel like putting together a summary of what we've discovered so far. THe main Chevron thread has got to an unwieldy length.

Allen

[allenbrown]

I've just been re-reading this thread to see if it makes more sense now and I'm still struggling.

However, maybe I can add something on that Japanese B48. The only results I can find for a B48 in Japan are:

JAF GP (5 Nov 1978) - #2 B48-Hart - Patrese 3rd
Suzuka (11 Mar 1979) - #6 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Rosberg Ret
Nishinihon (8 Apr 1979) - #7 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Naohiro Fujita 6th
Suzuka (20 May 1979) - #7 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Naohiro Fujita Ret
Fuji (3 Jun 1979) - #6 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Fumiyasu Sato 9th
Suzuka (1 Jul 1979) - #6 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Stephen South Ret

I wonder if Rosberg, Fujita and South are all driving the same car in which case it looks like a different car to the one Patrese drove at the JAF GP (and at Macau 78 according to a comment above by Chris). If, as Chris has said, Patrese's development B48 returned to Europe for Gaillard and later Devaney to race in 1979, then it was back in Europe by late April 1979 for Gaillard at the Nurburgring and can't be the one Le Mans Company are still racing in Japan. Or did Gaillard have the new B48-79-08 at the Nurburgring and only use the development car on some other later occasion?

I also spotted that confusing RAM Racing B48-BMW being driven by Luyendijk at Zandvoort on 15 July. It first appears at Hockenheim on 8 April but doesn't appear often. If Adam is right, and I suspect he is, this car would be B48-79-10. The number of B48-79-06 that we used earlier in this thread came from F1R and had a dot after it in their book, denoting speculation. Adam's identification comes from seeing the chassis plate of Galbraith's "ex-RAM/de Dryver" car.

So I think we have:
Dev't car Works/Patrese late 1978 - can't work this out for 1979 (help Chris!)
B48-79-01 Works/Rahal 1979 - Warren Booth 1980-81 ... Paul Rhodes "ex-Rottengather" (as Esprit) 1983-84, Rhodes (as F2) 1985 ... Steve Jewell by late 1980s
B48-79-02 no idea [Works/Rahal spare Silv 79 F1R]
B48-79-03 Rothgatter 1979 ... Steve Jewell by late 1980s (maybe 08??)
B48-79-04 [BMW] Trivellato/Stohr 1979 - Trivellato/rental/Tesini 1980 ... being advertised on the web 2006 (in France?)
B48-79-05 Works/Rahal spare/Gailard 1979 - Roy Baker 1980-81 ...
B48-79-06 no idea, maybe Dauer's ... Tony C's brother c1990
B48-79-07 Rothengatter spare 1979 - Rothengatter NZ 1980 - Andrew Miedecke (crashed at Macau) - still in Australia in damaged state 2006
B48-79-08 Quasi-works/Gaillard/Devaney 1979 - Brian Robinson 1980-83 (became Esprit by 83) - Bob Nelson (as Esprit) 1984 ...
B48-79-09 no idea
B48-79-10 [BMW] RAM/de Dryver 1979 - De Dryver entry only early 1980 ... Norrie Galbraith 1981 ...
Dauer car Dauer 1979 (B48-Hart crashed at Hock; KWS B48-BMW crashed at Nurb) - Dauer 1980 (B48-BMW at Hock and Nurb)

What can we add to this? I struggled to make sense of it.

Allen

[driftwood]

how many chevron b48 cars where made chevron story stops at B45 listing
le man co in japan would have had the 1 car only racing and it doesnt seem to show up in the 1-10 chassis range so it could be the developement car left in japan for 79 season they where also march agents as well

what car did Gaillard race? u have him at 2 chassis#

steve jewell had 2 b48 cars 1 was sold to the belgian poss rottengatter chassis who also owns 1 of the Rahal cars not sure which 1

[Bryan Miller]

Allen,

B48-79-07, all I can add at this point is that the bodywork was totally redone in the U.K. prior to Macau , and I am pretty sure it was done by West Surrey Racing, when I say redone I mean in a totally different type/style.

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

Drifty

Gaillard drove a 'new' B48, presumably B48-79-08, at two or three races early in the season and then disappeared for a while. When Rahal took over the Prophet drive in Can-Am, the regular 'works' B48 drive was vacant for Donington and Gaillard was brought back. According to Dan Rear's post above, Gaillard drove B48-79-05 with B48-79-01 kept as the spare while Devaney drove B48-79-08, said to be the car Gaillard drove earlier in the season. Rahal's regular car had been lengthened mid-season - do we know if Baker's or Booth's car was showing this mod in 1980?

Two things I forgot to add to the story up above: at Phoenix Park Sep 1979, Eddie Jordan drove the the ex-Gaillard/Devaney B48-79-08 (said to be a B49 but I'm sure Chris is right on this one) and Rothengatter had one of his B48s, also in F/Atl spec. As B48-79-07 then went to NZ as a F/Atl, it would seem likely that it was B48-79-07 he drove at Phoenix Park.

The Japanese car could be 02 or 06 or, as you say, the development car. It could even be 09. It's possible 01 was the development car and then kept as works spare in Europe in 1979 while a new 02-BMW went to Japan for Le Mans Company. Many things are possible Factory records really would help here.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

The development car becomes chassis 08.
This may be of help too.
MN says the ex Patrese car is loaned to Le Mans Co for Rosberg to use in the Japanese GP.
MN says Devaney's Donington car is "The ex Patrese Macau chassis; an updated B42 which Gaillard drove earlier this year" If it bears the 08 plate by this time, and has to come back to UK for the rebuild, then I think the split is either after Rosberg's JAF GP appearance or after Fujita's 8 April outing. This would mean that by late April Fujita gets a new car which - if 08 is one new number allocated at this tim, as we know it is - suggests the otherwise unknown 09 as the "real" Japanese B48.

I think that 02 is the KWS car for Dauer, but can't find a note on my Chevron chassis history sheet as to why!!

Which car does Tom O'Leary get in 1981? There aren't too many options than 03.
I thought that Adam F had noted 48-04 as Ray Rowan's 1982 car, ex Terry Fisher.

Chris

[Dan Rear]

I thought we were fairly clear on these Allen. 1,5 and 8 were the works cars, driven variously by Rahal, Gaillard, Devaney and EJ, 2 is Dauer, 3 & 7 Huub, 4 Stohr, 6 RAM.

The mystery items are the Japanese car, -09 perhaps, and the Adam note that Norrie G had -10. The Ray Rowan car was, I'm certain, actually the ex-Keke/Jim C B45, not a 48.

As an educated guess, the Norrie G car could be -10, a 'brand new' car, given his base, and that by then the operation had moved to Scotland. Maybe he had a word with Robin Smith there, and they knitted up a new car for him, based on an unused 1979 tub and numbered it the next in sequence, ie -10?????

[driftwood]

u can ask helen malkie but they charge their normal hourly rate to serach thru files

[Dan Rear]

Blimey, I'm in the wrong job dw!!!

[driftwood]

rowan had b40 car for a few yrs sold that to john crowson in 98 ish martin o connel raced it thruxton 94 f2 race

duncan rabliagati charges for his march info and mrs M said they charge for their time to dig thru files
lola charge for the drawings to be dug out and printed on the time aspect
so yes we are possibly in the wrong job!
ok really we are saddos but lest say u where aske dby joe bloggs to research the cars history consider yr time at say £10 per hour
when u search the web scan yr books that u have bought read thru yr AS mags the rime soon knocks up !!

i have bought £3000 worth of books the past 5 yrs just to get the info i need !!

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

I thought we were fairly clear on these Allen. 1,5 and 8 were the works cars, driven variously by Rahal, Gaillard, Devaney and EJ, 2 is Dauer, 3 & 7 Huub, 4 Stohr, 6 RAM.

Maybe Dan, but why were we clear? Maybe it's just that bane of the historian, "received wisdom". As far as I can see, the only reason for thinking RAM had 06 was because F1R called it 06 with a dot after it to show it was speculative. Do we have any other reason to think RAM had 06? Is there any supporting evidence? Anything at all?

Chris, yes you're right, Adam had Ray Rowan in B48-79-04 (ex-Terry Fisher) in 1982 then had Stuart Ridge in B48-79-04 (ex-Fisher, Rowan) in 1987. I had accepted Dan's view that this was actually B45-78-04 (ex-Crawford). However, we need to have a good reason for discounting Adam's contemporary observations; maybe the chassis plate had been overstamped following a rebuild or something. Crawford had the B45 in 1980 so does this mean Terry Fisher had it in 1981?

One more spanner to hurl into the works: Sports Extra in Autosport 8 Jul 1982 p45 has a feature on Robinson's newly completed Lotus Esprit where it says it was built on Robinson's "faithful Chevron B42". It repeats B42 in a caption of a picture of the tub. And talking of spanners, Richard Brown's "B49", identified by Adam as B49-79-02, is said (Autosport 16 Sep 1982 p30) to be "the ex-Bernard Devaney Chevron B47 F3 chassis, subsequently updated to B49 Atlantic specification for Scotsman Bill Ness". Some very odd things were going on at Chevron at this time!

Allen

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by driftwood

ok really we are saddos but lest say u where aske dby joe bloggs to research the cars history consider yr time at say £10 per hour

Hang on, why is it we do this? For financial gain? I don't think so.

I research racing cars because I enjoy it. Some people enjoy crosswords, some Sudoku, some like building model ships; I enjoy figuring out old racing cars. I feel it's more productive but at the end of the day it's what used to be called a "hobby". If someone asks me to research their car specifically, I just say no. Unless I fancy doing it anyway of course, in which case I just do it and don't charge. If they wanted to buy my time, it would be a hell of a lot more than £10 per hour. Years ago, before OldRacingCars.com, I used to charge £500 per car but stopped because it was no fun researching some obscure sports car that I didn't care about.

While I might freely exchange information with anyone who can move my research forward, Vin and Helen are running a business. If an owner wants them to go through their old files, why shouldn't they charge a proper business rate? I suspect if enthusiasts/historians like us asked them, their attitude may be different. Maybe their attitude already has been different but they'd rather it wasn't broadcast? I don't know, I'm just speculating.

Allen

[Dan Rear]

Allen, as ever you're right! We have no evidence to think -06 was the RAM car, at the time I even thought it was a B42 updated, which it could have been I suppose.

I'm still doubtful, purely from memory, on Rowan having -04 in 1982. I can't see why anyone, logically, would import a relatively 'poor' F2 car from Italy for the hills. Anyway, didn't Terry Fisher have a B42 around that time, not a 48. On the Jim C B45, I'm certain Vin Malkie had it in 1981, possibly 82 and 83 aswell.

Finally, the B49/47 issue, I've long suspected a number of the cars called 'B49s' on the hills were really 47s. They disappeared from F3 soon after 1979, and I reckon they would have been picked up cheap by sprinters/climbers soon after, and re-engined.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Allen, as ever you're right!

I wish!

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

I'm still doubtful, purely from memory, on Rowan having -04 in 1982. I can't see why anyone, logically, would import a relatively 'poor' F2 car from Italy for the hills. Anyway, didn't Terry Fisher have a B42 around that time, not a 48. On the Jim C B45, I'm certain Vin Malkie had it in 1981, possibly 82 and 83 aswell.

You've got me thinking now. Rowan only appears in the Sprint series Top 10 twice in 1982 and in pretty lowly positions whereas in 1983 he was winning rounds. Maybe he had a different car in 1982 to later years? Autosport don't report sprints in 1982 but Rowan is mentioned once, winning his class in a "B40". Maybe he had an older Chevron in 1982 and then acquired something newer for 1983, maybe something that had been updated at the factory and had acquired a dodgy chassis plate. You're right that Fisher had a B42 in 1980 but he only appears once, at Snetterton 10 Aug, and fails to start. His car has been identified as B42-78-14 and had a BDG at the time.

So are we concluding that the Rowan/Ridge "B45" wasn't the ex-Crawford car and that we actually don't know what it was?

Steve - help!!

Allen

PS Do you recall what Malkie was using the ex-Crawford B45 in? Libre?

[Dan Rear]

Malkie was out in some of the few 'decent' Libre races in the UK in 81, eg the July 4th 81 Donington Open. He was 3rd, behind Val M's Bennepaldi, and Andy B's March '782'. In that race, which had a good entry, both Booth and Robinson were out in their B48s.

[driftwood]

1 read terry / rod fisher cars as rown cars they live aprox 200 meters apart
2 yes you can read some of the b49 hillclimb /sprint car as f3 b47 cars in many cases
i will ask ray if he had b48 car its possible that he may have sold this to steve jewell later

[allenbrown]

Kevan, I'm struggling with your shothand again. Is it Terry Fisher and Ray Rowan you're saying live 200 metres apart? So the Chevron Terry Fisher drove at Snetterton in 1980 could have gone to Rowan for 1982? Could you ask Ray how many Chevrons he had?

I've just checked the Autosport Snetterton report and Fisher's car is described as the ex-Agostini/Brill B40, not B42. But it must be a B42 as Ago never had a B40. So this is the car Dan was asking about a couple of years ago - I'll add a comment to the B42 thread.

Allen

[driftwood]

see my earlier comment re rowan chevron b40 martin o connel driving it in 1993
Mr Brown please pay more attention!!

just read yr other comment re archives ££ per hour
yes some people have a business to run so if there not welding a widget to a rocker at X£ per hour and sifting thru files they still need to charge their time
i doubt they would look at their files for us unless u flash the cash
i acquired the comment when i asked Helen about 1 car we own andwe wil be buying some parts later for it so i was not expecting this comment !

my point was that if u had to do research for a punter it would take more time than you realise and i appreciate that we are " train spotting" here and we do it for "competitive" reasons or cos we are do dumb do do sudoko/crosswords but life has become easier with the email web thing
how would i for example find u guys?
u dont drink in my local pub nor come to the races making yourself known
i have learne da few things just from these threads and "met " some guys that have been helpful off line for my own gain so i give back what i can in return
However i would be very irritated if i found a snake in the grass profiting from our ramblings and im sure we would all stop doing it

[driftwood]

1 rod is rays brother in law
2 terry is "down" the street at present not sure oif they are related in anyway hence my vagueness

3 Ago B42 car was run by steve fitzsimmons sold circa 1999 & now in usa with bmw fitted in period Voxson livery

4 I will ask ray he called me other day to check i was still alive so 2 discussions in 7 days may be too stressful for him !!

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by driftwood

see my earlier comment re rowan chevron b40 martin o connel driving it in 1993
Mr Brown please pay more attention!!

Sorry! And you also said that Rowan sold a B40 to Crowson. The latter car would be this one:

B40-77-08 Opert for Laffite and others [Hart] 1977 - Opert for Prost 1978 - Gibson 1979 - Harper 1980 ... Ames 1984-86 ... Hill 1988-90 ... Crowson 2006

So that can't be the Rowan-Ridge car as that has a history from 1982 to 1987. So is the Martin O'Connel ex-Rowan B40 a different B40?