|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
22 Mar 2010, 13:06 (Ref:2657795) | #1 | |
Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 74
|
Lord Draysons comments regarding sportscar racing ten years from now
During the Sebring 12 hour Speed TV was interviewing Drayson and asked him about going green and the future of sports car racing.
He said the *E* word. He said he sees electric vehicles racing ten years from now. I've been hearing about electric vehicles more and more lately and I just don't see them replacing the internal combustion engine. The technology is interesting enough and the acceleration is mind blowing. But no noise? B O R I N G. What's your opinion on electric racing vehicles? |
|
|
22 Mar 2010, 13:08 (Ref:2657796) | #2 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,834
|
Lots of leccy means MASSIVE boombox, and a V12 soundtrack!
Otherwise, have you HEARD a Pug or Audi, yet? The electric 908HY was barely quieter with the diesel switched off. I have said as much, in here, before. Enjoy noisy cars while you can. |
||
__________________
Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
22 Mar 2010, 13:19 (Ref:2657803) | #3 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
|
Here's something I wrote a few months ago at the touringcartimes forum:
Racing (and especially production based racing) will soon reach a very critical point, as the roadcar will go to places where the racecar can't follow. What I am talking about is the electric revolution. I am not sure when it will happen, but within the next decade or two mainstream automobiles will probably become mostly powered by fuel cells or be plug-in-EVs. While these cars areawet dream for every politican concerned with infrastructure (think about it: no more noise complaints when planning new roads and highways, no more pollutants that destroy old buildings and cause cancer and so on...) they are every race fan's nightmare. Why: because they are silent, and racing without the noise is - quite frankly - not half as much fun as racing with the noise. If I want to follow a race, I can usually do it better at home in front of a TV, with timing and scoring running on the laptop, than at a track. The biggest reason why I still prefer the experience at the track are the incredible sounds of cars being pushed to the limit - the soundwaves of two dozens of sportscars reverberating from the roofs of the grandstands at Hockenheim or of two hundred cars of all kinds that sound throw the forest at noon out on the Nürburgring Nordschleife when a VLN-race is about to start. Yes, the cars are spectacular, and it is cool to see them up close, but I can't see myself standing at a track looking at a field of 20 or even 40 almost silent EVs. The consequence of that: Racing has to stay noisy, even if it loses its relevance for the production car industry and hence the manufacturer support. Racing can't move away from the internal combustion engine - it can become greener by using biofuels or hydrogen combustion, but eventually there will be no connection between roadcar propulsion and racecar propulsion. For manufacturers these cars will at best be billboards, but no longer a place to showcase engineerical prowess. |
||
|
22 Mar 2010, 19:04 (Ref:2658015) | #4 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,500
|
The Tesla was on Top Gear the other day, at speed it has a high pitched sound, it isn't silent.
One manufactuer in Evo magazine a few months back claimed an electric motor can be 'tuned' to produce any sound they like. |
|
|
23 Mar 2010, 20:47 (Ref:2658849) | #5 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,406
|
I think Lord Drayson is smoking some serious stuff making comments like that, but never say never, 10 years is a short time in the auto industry.......the hybrid industry has been split up into 3 sectors, micro, mild and full......or more simply small, medium and large......the nonsense that that ACO have been writing into their rules falls into the micro and mild hybrid sector, and how many people have actually taken the baton and actually raced something with gusto......well pug made a demo car, but not much sign of that actually racing - someone please correct me if you think I'm wrong......I think a few more manufacturers with big balls will need to enter the arena before there is any chance of this happening......someone like Honda, Toyota or Mercedes will probably take the plunge and the ACO will probably offer them some free space in the rule book for the chosen manufacturer to write the rules, just like they have been doing with Audi. The saving grace will probably be that any form of LMP hybrid will be heavily dependant on assisting an internal combustion engine, so it will sound OK, you can sleep easy!
|
||
|
24 Mar 2010, 03:44 (Ref:2659009) | #6 | |
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,396
|
One could see 'old technology' becoming popular for the noise - provided they don't introduce bans. I suspect they well might. Either that or the tracks will succumb to developers and no one will build new tracks. Quite how well the more recent developments will succeed as Historics is another matter.
I guess for noise that would leave just the bikes - maybe the boats too? Unless of course battery technology improves capacity vs size so much that even bikes could use them. The green thing is a red herring. How long would a race battery last? Not in the race but in re-usability terms before its charge holding potential became compromised? As for road car noise - most are incredibly quiet already, other than for tyre noise. Currently reducing tyre noise tends to mean compromised tyre performance but that may not be the case in the future. In any case the younger generation who will be the lucky winners of the silent racing era have earphones surgically implanted so the chance of hearing anything much will be greatly reduced to the point where only oldies with working memories and hearing aids would actually care... |
|
|
28 Mar 2010, 07:43 (Ref:2661431) | #7 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,351
|
Quote:
Fuel cells- pipe dream. Electric cars- down south maybe they can sucker some people to be slaves to an electrical outlet, but up here where it can hit sub-zero Fahrenheit for up to a week straight and be a normal night time temperature for two months easily, while automobiles must be able navigate a foot or more snow till plows get all road cleared, electric vehicles would be something out of a Benny Hill skit. The internal combustion engine isn't going away in your lifetime. |
|||
|
28 Mar 2010, 20:16 (Ref:2662138) | #8 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 28
|
electric cars always confuse me is it really better to fire up a huge powerstation either on fossil fuels or nuclear power compared to using petrol or diesel.
battery technology even massivly better than 10yrs ago still is pretty shocking for use in a car. a tesla barely does 150miles. and thats not even with heaters on and lights etc etc. also batteries have a downward scale of life, everyone knows the more times u use ur ipod or phone laptop after a while your battery life just aint as good as it once was. i think battery powered cars are a massive white elephant |
||
|
28 Mar 2010, 21:18 (Ref:2662188) | #9 | ||||
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,396
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We may see specific applications - city vehicles and so on, just like electric milkfloats worked well for the task required of them. Of course there was also the trolley bus solution which, dare I say it, by requiring vehciles to run sequentially also offer options for controlling traffic movement on the public roads. Not necessarily a nice thought. Under road induction systems might also work- with a secondary benefit of providing infrastructure for heating and de-icing of roads in winter. Could maybe also be part of the national grid infrastructure. They might fry a few bejewelled or reconstructed pedestrians though. |
||||
|
30 Mar 2010, 14:14 (Ref:2663523) | #10 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,406
|
Quote:
Bob - I agree with some of your comments, yes the IC engine is here for the long term, but fuel cells are certainly not a pipe dream, I currently work in the hybrid design and development industry and let me assure you that fuel cells will soon be in the market place weather you like them or not. Some good discussions going on here! basically the industry has realised the mild and full hybrids are bad value for money, this is principally linked to the poor (big!) battery technology in the marketplace, there are now several companies that are pushing the boundaries of Lithium Ion and Ultra Caps in terms of size versus power storage, as a result their size (and cost) is set to shrink by quite a big margin. This will come to fruition in the next 2-3 years in a proof of concept form, then that will make a race derivative look more attractive (size wise). |
|||
|
30 Mar 2010, 14:20 (Ref:2663526) | #11 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,834
|
TBH. Li=Ion is a dead end for cars. As said elsewhere, not enough sources for materials, so OK for cameras, phones, laptops etc. but forget transport. It's not just Lithium, either. One particular element is found 90% within China, and there is only enough for forecast DOMESTIC battery demand, never mind global...
Other power sources required, folks. |
||
__________________
Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
30 Mar 2010, 14:22 (Ref:2663530) | #12 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,406
|
I also forgot to mention - you are all talking about fuel cells like they are just a storage device for electricity which is just not the case........there are also liquid and gas hydrogen versions.......the latter (gas) is very attractive for your average punter, all you need is a wind source, you run some electrodes from a wind generator through water, compress the hydrogen gas into cylinders, then transfer the gas to your vehicle which then purges the gas through a fuel cell (not an IC engine (very inefficient!)) which generates electricity and powers the main drive motor........this is already very popular and available technology in europe, with big government funding in place.......believe me!.......potentially you are looking at zero fuel cost.
|
||
|
24 Mar 2010, 19:49 (Ref:2659394) | #13 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,936
|
Quote:
Only thing is that the FIA GT1 car's will likely still run unsilenced, meaning unsilenced DBR9's will still be loud enough to blow chunks of buildings and curdle milk. But a sort of integrated sound system on the car's pumping out a engine note of that team's choosing? not sure how loud it would be, if it could be made loud enough that would be rather good. Ferrari 512 V12? Porsche 917? Sauber C9 noises? be enough to make a man wet himself with joy. |
|||
|
24 Mar 2010, 23:32 (Ref:2659542) | #14 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 29
|
Quote:
* ok, last year 1 dB difference but in 2010 edition it has been lowered down to 112 dB too |
||
|
25 Mar 2010, 00:38 (Ref:2659560) | #15 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,936
|
Quote:
Maybe the FIA series dont enforce it as strictly as the ACO series, the FIA GT car's are definetely louder than LMS GT2 car's. Barring the Porsche 911's which run the same muffler, unless there is a car like Brixia's which ran with the glorious sounding cross over exhaust at Silverstone FIA GT last year. The days of the loud racing car though are fading, day is turning to night and unfortunately, no one in power really gives two hoots about what the fans think. |
|||
|
25 Mar 2010, 01:03 (Ref:2659565) | #16 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,793
|
I love the sound of a well-tuned racing engine and have ever since the first race I attended as a kid. That being said, the world moves on. If internal combustion is on its way out and electric power on its way in (and I'm not saying things are that simple) then so be it. There are much more important things in the world than hearing a race car's screaming engine. Like the world itself, and its inhabitants - including non-human ones. I don't like mosquitoes, but I have less desire to keep spraying DDT.
Besides, we will always have historics! |
||
|
28 Mar 2010, 00:22 (Ref:2661315) | #17 | |||
Rookie
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 29
|
Quote:
ACO 2010 regs GT1/GT2 and LMP: 5.8.4. - Noise level: The sound emitted from each car will must not exceed 112 dbA during the qualifying practices and the race. The measurement will be made at 15 meters from the edge of the track. Ecxatly same in 2009, in 2007/2008 limit was 113. FIA GT 2010 regs: Catalytic exhausts are not mandatory. It is recommended that the noise level as defined in Articles 257.5.6.3 of the 2010 Appendix J and 258.5.7.2 of the 2009 Appendix J be respected. Appendix J: 5.6.3 The noise emitted by the car must not exceed 112 dB(A) during the qualifying practice sessions and the race. The measurement will be carried out 15 metres from the edge of the track. All measures taken to ensure that the maximum noise limits are not exceeded must be permanent in nature, and must not be eliminated by the exhaust gas pressure. In 2007, 2008 and 2009 limit was 113 Quote:
Last edited by Lazy; 28 Mar 2010 at 00:32. |
|||
|
24 Mar 2010, 05:01 (Ref:2659024) | #18 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
|
I'm 23 and I care. I have a number of friends who are very much into racing that isn't NASCAR. My five-month-old nephew likes the sound of engines too.
|
||
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
24 Mar 2010, 07:37 (Ref:2659063) | #19 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 931
|
As crazy as it sounds, electric powered race cars are just about as possible as the diesels were thought to be, prior to Audi turning up with the R10's, as the first serious contender with diesels. Before that, if anyone was talking of a diesel being really competitive, the men in their white coats would have been knocking on your door with their straight jackets in hand to take you away for some therapy.
|
||
__________________
Go the mighty Flying Lizards "A good way to gauge the strength of your argument is to weight the quality of the rebuttals. Strong arguments have low quality rebuttals." David Heinemeier Hansson |
24 Mar 2010, 12:42 (Ref:2659201) | #20 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,209
|
Quote:
Last edited by deggis; 24 Mar 2010 at 13:06. |
||
|
24 Mar 2010, 13:42 (Ref:2659223) | #21 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 178
|
My thoughts...
Is there currently technology available to run a car on electricity only for a 12 or 24 hr endurance race? Of course you can replace batteries during a pitstop but to me using up loads of batteries instead of petrol, that defeats the point of being 'green'. During Le Mans will the cars have to stop at a campsite to plug in and recharge? The infrastructure around endurance racing and electric cars don't match up do they? I'm sure I remember hearing that the internal combustion engine is still the most efficient way of turning fossil fuel into energy, so unless the electricity is generated from a 'green' source and not a power station that burns fossil fuels would we be any better off? Interesting conversation anyway.... |
||
|
24 Mar 2010, 15:01 (Ref:2659255) | #22 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,007
|
Quote:
The limit at present to the development of electric road cars is battery technology, the new Nissan that we have heard so much about in the last few weeks will have limits to it's use because of range and recharge rates/times. It will be OK for my wife to use for her shopping and hair do trips but no good for me for business trips. To allow electric cars to race and change batteries may push battery technolgy or provide a publicity opportunity for firms that have developed such technology. Don't forget Lord Drayson's day job in the British Government, Technology Minister |
|||
|
24 Mar 2010, 13:44 (Ref:2659227) | #23 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 178
|
Maybe this is the future.....
http://www.dullmensclub.com/races/24...at-racing.html if Benny Hill was still with us maybe he would be World Champion, at least in the west? |
||
|
24 Mar 2010, 16:37 (Ref:2659289) | #24 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,714
|
Of course the hand of the rules could be pushed if the cost of oil increased many times.
Hopefully we will always have historic racing to relive the aural delights of the internal combustion engine |
|
|
24 Mar 2010, 19:29 (Ref:2659377) | #25 | |
Subscriber
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,396
|
Taking a different view as a starting point - just in the interest of covering all the angles you understand ....
Noise. The cars could be forced to make a noise (and therefore use power) suitable for the category in which they wish to race, creating smething not dissimilar to the noise grouops we migh expect today. Batteries. An alternative to changing batteries during the race would be to cable all the tracks and get the cars to run on in induction basis with 'back to the pits' battery backup. I would imagine that there must be some technology around to 'steal' power (my Induction hob in the kitchen does, er, a job, of power sharing when demand is high. To the point where it will shut off one bank if it starts to get warmer than it likes ...) . So there would be some technology and tactilcle issues in play. Better still a 'full course yellow', or even a local yellow, would be easy to implement. Think train sets. Index of performance. One could smart-meter all electrical usage (Penalties for driving more than one lap without lights in a night race) and apply some sort of IoP formula. Or maybe a variable handicap adjustment. There would have to be some strict bans in place though. For example a well fucded team might be able to afford its own nuclear power plant in tha container, tuned to recharge batteries in the blink of an eye. Clearly having a few million $s worth of nuclear power travelling the world to supply a team with power for 'sport' might not go down well in some circles. Other suggestions from the stream of consciousness? [On a slightly different tack - would the racing be likely any more processional than F1 ....? If not, who can object? ] Oh well, I guess we will still have powered lawnmowers to fall back to. |
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Rank your top Ten Sportscar Drivers - past 10 years | davehenrie | Sportscar & GT Racing | 59 | 3 Jan 2010 11:36 |
Engine development frozen for ten years | VilleneuveTracy | Formula One | 1 | 26 Oct 2007 19:20 |
Ten years today. | rpolinski | Formula One | 26 | 18 Nov 2003 13:12 |