[Rumours] Porsche & Volkswagen Group considering entering F1

[crmalcolm]

Porsche and parent company the Volkswagen Group are considering entering Formula 1.

'VAG is said to have had initial exploratory talks with three teams - Red Bull, McLaren and Williams.'

[Richard C]

Can we just get a list of everyone who F1 has engaged with regarding the potential for joining F1 in 2025? I expect two things. First, while small, it would include a number of manufacturers who are not providing power units. Second, not all of them will pull the trigger on jumping into F1. I guess my point is.. Isn't someone at the major manufacturers always looking at F1? Is this even really newsworthy at this point?

I own a Porsche 914 that I have been slowly restoring. Each year, for at least a decade, if not longer, fans of the car post articles that say Porsche is thinking of bringing forward a new 914. Its like clockwork. Sometimes twice a year.

Richard

[JHamilton]

They've been considering it my whole life.

[Moneyseeker]

You would say Red Bull would be favourite, they have heavily sponsored a wide range of VAG motorsport for years and of course they will have the in house capability to design and develop the new engine in partnership with VAG engineers.

The brand people at Porsche might see McLaren as too much of a direct competitor on the road cars and confusing message if it was a McLaren-Porsche, but OK if Audi brand gets the nod.

All a long way off and a lot can happen in that time, as we have seen in 2020, sadly.

[chillibowl]

i feel like this is the typical annual story that floats around the start of every new F1 season.

in a week or two i suspect someone else from VAG will sound off on how F1 makes no sense.

who knows though, maybe it will be different this time. im a bit hopeful that with Alfa, AMR and Alpine in the mix, the branding needs for niche brands are taking the stage over the major manus/we are in the process of a new paradigm in F1...the end of the manu era.

[steve_r]

There have been numerous stories about VAG entering F1 over the last 20 years - and there is always one thing in common with all the rumours: It never actually happens.

This years rumour is related to someone from Porshe being interested in the Engine Regulation discussions. So, there actually may be something behind it. Or it could be the usual nonsense.

I'm glad we have a thread for it, so that it can be resurrected each time a new unsubstantiated rumour about VAG emerges!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by steve_r

There have been numerous stories about VAG entering F1 over the last 20 years - and there is always one thing in common with all the rumours: It never actually happens.

This years rumour is related to someone from Porshe being interested in the Engine Regulation discussions. So, there actually may be something behind it. Or it could be the usual nonsense.

I'm glad we have a thread for it, so that it can be resurrected each time a new unsubstantiated rumour about VAG emerges!

I think some of the story comes from rumours that VAG may sell a stake in, or all of Porsche, to fund future EV model development.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I think some of the story comes from rumours that VAG may sell a stake in, or all of Porsche, to fund future EV model development.

Not impossible but don’t forget it was Porsche who bought VW and not the other way around.

And also don’t forget that a major part of the reason was to balance emissions across a much wider pool.

[P38 in workshop]

Consider also that there are persistent rumours that Bugatti might be sold to Rimac.On the other hand Volkswagen have withdrawn from piston engined motorsport since they see the future being electric.Might a possibility be that they would develop an engine if a partner commissioned and funded it?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Not impossible but don’t forget it was Porsche who bought VW and not the other way around.

And also don’t forget that a major part of the reason was to balance emissions across a much wider pool.

Porsche tried to buy VAG but failed and racked up 10m euro's in debt trying and ended up being bought by VAG.

[S griffin]

I don't think we'll see Porsche back in F1, they probably will always be more concerned with sportscars. That's how I see it

[Richard C]

Misunderstanding of the VAG/Porsche ownership comes up occasionally here. If I remember correctly Porsche AG got caught in a short squeeze when then Porsche AG CEO drove Porsche AG to try to buy VAG. The attempt sort of worked, left Porsche AG with 15 B debt load that was not anticipated. To settle the debt and prevent bankruptcy of Porsche, VAG bought Porsche AG and covered the debt. (I may have some details wrong, but basically that was it)

What is less commonly talked about is Porsche SE which is a holding controlled by the Porsche and Piech family. Porsche SE holds a controlling interest in VAG. So Porsche/Piech family own VAG who owns Porsche Automobile.

Who knows what is in the minds of the Porsche/Piech family, but I have a hard time imagining them selling off the original family brand. If anything, maybe they take Porsche private again by pulling it out of VAG. Do this by pulling in a partner, provide funds to VAG, but still maintain a controlling interest in both.

Richard

[S griffin]

I wouldn’t rule out VAG competing in F1, I’ve always thought it would be good if Audi came in and even if it hasn’t happened, I think there’s a fair chance of it happening. As for Porsche, I see them as sort of a black sheep of the VAG family. They probably benefit a lot from VAG funding, but they pretty much go their own way despite that, as they always have done

But yeah, we’ll wait and see what happens. Porsche will probably only do it if it suits them and I can’t see it happening. They will only do it if it doesn’t impact largely on their sportscar budget. That’s probably why they haven’t done it yet. So there you go. That’s my view

[P38 in workshop]

I believe the largest shareholding in VAG was in the control of the Bank of Lower Saxony.Would they countenance shovelling such large amounts of cash in the direction of motorsport?Or would they direct it to designing and engineering cars that keep the production lines moving and their account holders in gainful employment?We shall see.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Porsche tried to buy VAG but failed and racked up 10m euro's in debt trying and ended up being bought by VAG.

A common misunderstanding.

Porsche AG is certainly owned by VAG.

But then a controlling stake in VAG is owned by Porsche Automobil Holding SE which is majority owned by the Porsche family.

So Porsche owns VAG and not the other way around.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

A common misunderstanding.

Porsche AG is certainly owned by VAG.

But then a controlling stake in VAG is owned by Porsche Automobil Holding SE which is majority owned by the Porsche family.

So Porsche owns VAG and not the other way around.

To be honest. If someone says "Porsche owns VAG" the vast majority of people think "Porsche" is "Porsche AG" (auto manufacture). If you are going to use "Porsche" to represent the holding company in a pedantic way, then frankly its more accurate (even more pedantic) to say the "Porsche and Piech family" or "Porsche SE" own VAG not "Porsche" owns VAG. "Porsche" is an ambiguous label that is both right and wrong depending upon the context (AG vs SE).

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

To be honest. If someone says "Porsche owns VAG" the vast majority of people think "Porsche" is "Porsche AG" (auto manufacture). If you are going to use "Porsche" to represent the holding company in a pedantic way, then frankly its more accurate (even more pedantic) to say the "Porsche and Piech family" or "Porsche SE" own VAG not "Porsche" owns VAG. "Porsche" is an ambiguous label that is both right and wrong depending upon the context (AG vs SE).

Richard

Ok

But the point is that the Porsche family controls VAG and not vice versa. Piech, I think, is the married name of a Porsche daughter.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Ok

But the point is that the Porsche family controls VAG and not vice versa. Piech, I think, is the married name of a Porsche daughter.

Yes. For those others wondering what the hell we are talking about. Ferdinand Porsche had two children. Ferdinand "Ferry" and Louise Porsche. Louise went onto marry family friend Anton Piech. The heirs of those two children effectively owned all of the original Porsche after Ferdinand's death. Hence the "Porsche/Piech" references.

After seniors death, Ferry ran Porsche, but in the 1970's the Porsche/Piech family extracted themselves from the day to day of the running of Porsche to avoid infighting over control by the children of the two families. So for example this resulted in Ferdinand Piech moving off to run Audi and eventually VAG and becoming very powerful at VAG before he passed away in 2019 I think. Anyhow, in 2007 those remaining financial holdings of the Porsche/Piech families were extracted out of Porsche AG and placed into the holding company Porsche SE. With the holding company then controlling Porsche AG.

It's unclear to me how much of VAG Porsche SE owned prior to the failed 2007-2008 takeover. Regardless in the end, today Porsche SE controls over 50% of the voting rights of VAG. Porsche SE also borrowed 10 B to make that all work out back then (clear up the takeover mess). They have since paid that off.

I know this probably bores most people so I will shut up about it. I will say I am a big fan of both Porsche and Honda. Those are my two favorite marques (in the order). I would love to see one or both in F1. But in only the right conditions (viable path to success and not a money pit). If they get the 2025 technical regulations correct, then maybe that is a good time for them to jump in. But I am not holding my breath. And as others call out, this rumor shows up year in year out like clockwork. And I think as we are in that period of "season is just about to start" in which people are excited, but still with not a great deal to talk about, now is a great time for people to recycle the rumors. And of course there is probably always a nugget of truth because no doubt many manufactures are keeping an eye on the 2025 regulations and that includes trying to steer them in a direction that would be advantageous for them.

Richard

[Richard C]

Slow news day...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...-ever/5635021/

Explosive quote from the article...

"Basically, all developments in motorsport and in racing series are permanently observed and evaluated," Enzinger told the BBC. He said this was especially true "with regard to the new engine and the rules for the powertrain in Formula 1 from 2025", when a new generation of power unit is set to be introduced.

In short... Yes, we evaluate this type of thing all the time.

Richard

[S griffin]

There’s got to be something behind it. We’ll just have to see if they go through with it this time. But I am still hopeful of seeing the Audi name in the championnship

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

There’s got to be something behind it. We’ll just have to see if they go through with it this time. But I am still hopeful of seeing the Audi name in the championnship

The article above says it started with a BBC Sport article. Which I think is this one...

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/56272450

Porsche Motorsport vice-president Fritz Enzinger told BBC Sport: "It would be of great interest if aspects of sustainability - for instance, the implementation of e-fuels - play a role in this.

"Should these aspects be confirmed, we will evaluate them in detail within the VW Group and discuss further steps."

To me, the above quote is the heart of this which again is basically that it is the job of the motorsport part of the business to pay attention to these things. What is missing from the article is "why" they were talking to Enzinger. Did Enzinger want to push this topic (i.e. VAG/Porsche are looking to stir the pot publicly), or did it just come up during something like (like at a presentation on some other Porsche motorsport activity and he was just asked about F1 and gave a canned response).

Also, clear the new technical regulations (which F1 is working on right now) drives this. If that discussion was not happening, I doubt we would be hearing so much about the potential for new manufactures. And clearly the new regulations IS an opportunity to bring new manufactures into F1.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Apparently a decision by VAG will probably be made this month, and if they enter it may be as both Porsche and Audi-branded engines.

'New Porsche Motorsport managing director Thomas Laudenbach has said it is “not a secret we are seriously considering” an F1 programme.
“There’s no decision made yet,” said Laudenbach. “So if you asked if we will be there or not, I don’t know.
“But we are considering it, and we will have a decision. But I can’t really say exactly when.
“One thing is clear, if such a decision is made, you can’t wait too long.
“Because if you want to race in 2025, or 2026, you have to start at a certain time.”

[S griffin]

I won't hold my breath, we've been waiting long enough for them. TBH if Porsche were to enter F1, I feel they should have already have, but we'll see. I will watch with interest. Who will they go with for starters? Will F1 still fit their agenda down the line? That said Audi can always give it a try, there's a brand that could easily have had success in F1....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I won't hold my breath, we've been waiting long enough for them. TBH if Porsche were to enter F1, I feel they should have already have, but we'll see. I will watch with interest. Who will they go with for starters? Will F1 still fit their agenda down the line? That said Audi can always give it a try, there's a brand that could easily have had success in F1....

Is there a reason why Audi could have more success than Porsche?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I won't hold my breath, we've been waiting long enough for them. TBH if Porsche were to enter F1, I feel they should have already have, but we'll see. I will watch with interest. Who will they go with for starters? Will F1 still fit their agenda down the line? That said Audi can always give it a try, there's a brand that could easily have had success in F1....

I guess Porsche having previously success is what exactly? And having more relevant experience with smaller petrol engine hybrid over a diesel? Oh, and likely to be exactly the same engine as with the LMDh program. So why would Audi be more likely to have success?