UK Formula Renault - The Invisible Championship

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by bella

i wasn't talking literally, i was talking theoretically.

and anyway, i know what i mean and it's my opinion. throw your numbers at it all you like, but i do honestly believe it ain't what it used to be. guess it's just a phase things are going through.

So it was just a subjective opinion? Couldn't it just be that it's your perception of the series that has changed?

[bella]

interesting point, but i don't think so. personally, i started following the 2002 season from a clean slate, and it was obvious straight away that it was a strong year. and it wasn't a year as much about the winner of the championship for me, i think the level of talent that was in its first year (and in the case of some, subsequent years) was greater.

taking that same view on this season, looking at the depth of ability, i think this is a quiet year. they exist... it's been a quiet few for formula ford, why can't it happen in formula renault?

[Gaz]

I agree - 2002 was the strongest field of drivers I can remember racing together for quite some time - Jamie Green, Danny Watts, Ryan Sharp, Lewis Hamilton, Steven Kane, Katherine Legge just to name a few off the top of my head although I'm sure there's many more I've missed out!

I guarantee this year that not one of the drivers will make F1 in the future and I would be very surprised to see any of them making a name for themselves in the top levels of motorsport in the coming years - maybe 1-2 will break through but certainly not with the talent and achieving the success that we've seen of past graduates.

[bella]

2003 was good too, a lot of the quick ones from 02 were in their 2nd year.
(at this point i start worrying that gaz agrees with me... )

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by Gaz

I agree - 2002 was the strongest field of drivers I can remember racing together for quite some time - Jamie Green, Danny Watts, Ryan Sharp, Lewis Hamilton, Steven Kane, Katherine Legge just to name a few off the top of my head although I'm sure there's many more I've missed out!

I guarantee this year that not one of the drivers will make F1 in the future and I would be very surprised to see any of them making a name for themselves in the top levels of motorsport in the coming years - maybe 1-2 will break through but certainly not with the talent and achieving the success that we've seen of past graduates.

All reasonable comment and opinion.

Not much of a prediction though? I stand to be corrected because I am not sure but, to date hasn't there only been 1 graduate from British FR2000 ever make it to F1, in 6 years and only one other looks like he will do so?

[Gaz]

I think your correct with that comment yeh - Kimi Raikkonen is the only F1 graduate but many have gone on to race succesfully in other top international championships so although they haven't in essence made it to the very top of the game they've achieved credibility.

Paddy Hogan, Sam Bird and Duncan Tappy are the only drivers I can see making a name for themselves in the top levels of motor racing from this and maybe Valle Makela if he can begin to drive like he did during his Formula Ford years.

Sebastian Hohenthal will end up in Swedish Touring Cars and the rest will either end up racing British GT or falling by the wayside - theres my prediction for you!!

[boycie]

that's pretty correct as it currently stands.

the reason i asked about watts was because people seem to have been knocking hogan for being in his third year, without appreciating he had never raced anything at all prior to 2002/2003.

but it took watts three years to win the thing and people rate him

[bella]

i don't think it's as much knocking as it is pointing out that before anyone gets too excited, hogan is in his third year in the same series. but as you say, that goes the other way and it's "only" three years. but that needen't be "only" if he's had a good 3 years and been in a good position to learn.

is there a theory that says 3 years in the same type of car isn't as good for a driver as 3 years in different series?

[boycie]

it seems as though formula renault can teach a driver a lot and i'm sure hamilton once said it was certainly a two year championship and possibly even three. if a talent like that says those things i think you'd have to agree

[Gaz]

I'd agree that Formula Renault is certainly a two year deal - if you look at the roll call the majority of title winners have been in the series for more than one year.

With Danny I think you have to look at the competition he beat. I know many of them were rookies at the time but if your comparing Danny with Hogan then Danny comprehensively beat the competition week in week out where as Hogan isn't anything like as consistent at beating the competition which is also nowhere near as strong as in the year Danny won the title.

I think Paddy is pretty quick don't get me wrong but I don't see him in the same mould as recent graduates such as Hamilton, Green and Jarvis.

[boycie]

but jarvis certainly wasn't dominant last year and if anything jakes and mcintosh let him off the hook in the last round.

should hogan be able to get the backing he needs to go up the ladder i for one have a lot of confidence he would do very well.

[Gaz]

Jarvis wasn't dominant no but his competition in McIntosh certainly is much stronger than any of this years pack and I think I'm right in thinking it was Jarvis' second not third year?

I don't think Paddy can moan so much about budget up to this point he's always been in very strong cars - infact last season he was in a Manor motor just like Jarvis and who came out on top?

[boycie]

and who has the most 'race' experience? jarvis has spent years in karts then into ford i think and then two years in formula renault.

hogan did some sort of scholarship, a little bit of zip or something and then straight into formula renault. i think he has achieved a lot, you can't compare the career paths of him and jarvis.

and just because hogan has been with manor and now aka, it doesn't mean he hasn't struggled like hell to get the money. i'd like to bet he has having listened to some of his quotes at the track

[dee]

have to say, just joined and can't agree. VERY competitive this year with so many in second, and third years plus having done winter series. only "rookie" who has got to grips with it is Sam Bird. great driver. great persoality. will goa long way. made mistakes last year in BMW, let championship slip from grasp, but where is the BMW champion? is HE coming first in tests and getting poles, seconds, thirds? i don't think so! if Bird hadn't been knocked off track at Oulton Park, he would be up to second or third in the championship by now. he was after all a finalist in the Autosport awards.

[Gaz]

Competitive I agree it is - I think the debate is on just how good the drivers cometiting in it are Dee.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by Gaz

Competitive I agree it is - I think the debate is on just how good the drivers cometiting in it are Dee.

That's right, but we've shown that the speeds are up with other years, and it's very close in terms of numbers of drivers in with a shout, so what evidence at all is there that this year's drivers are not as good as previous?

Still none as far as I can see.

[Gaz]

Nothing concrete but based on records by drivers racing in the series this year against top drivers in past years I'd be very surprised.

I think we've all agreed that Sam Bird is a stand out who could go places so for a minute disregard him the rest Paddy Hogan, Jeremy Metcalfe, Richard Keen, Sebastian Hohenthal all have experience of the class prior to this season and all struggled in the past against the likes of the Jarvis', McIntoshs' and the case of Hogan drivers that have won the championship in seasons prior that.

The drivers that tend to go far from this championship are drivers that have dominated or have come in during the first year and really shown themselves to be exceptional - look at Hamilton, Green, Raikkonen as examples - all performed superbly during their first years and in the case of Hamilton dominated in their second year.

If Hogan was to be seen as a superb driver (and I take him as example as the current championship leader) who could go all the way surely in his third year of racing, driving for arguebly the best team in the championship he should be "doing a Hamilton" so to speak and dominating week in week out rather than just at selected rounds?

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Gaz

I think we've all agreed that Sam Bird is a stand out who could go places so for a minute disregard him the rest Paddy Hogan, Jeremy Metcalfe, Richard Keen, Sebastian Hohenthal all have experience of the class prior to this season and all struggled in the past against the likes of the Jarvis', McIntoshs' and the case of Hogan drivers that have won the championship in seasons prior that.

Richard Keen joined the championship late last year, but still managed overall top 6 finishes and was the graduate cup champion. Metcalfe was with Welch Motorsport in his first year, and you say Hohental- he finished 4th in the ch'ship in his first year and was a race winner. They haven't done too badly when you think about it.

[Gaz]

Yeh I guess but if you look at last years grid - beyond Oli Jarvis and McIntosh to me there weren't any real stand outs - and in my eyes those two aren't exceptional in the mould of the Hamilton's and Green's of this world just very good drivers.

Metcalfe is a bit of an unknown because of the team he was with but he hasn't really shone up to now and Hohenthal like Hogan should be winning week in week out.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see in the years to come on them but I'm sure we'll all watch with more intrigue after this debate!

[boycie]

what's with banging on about jarvis and mcintosh all the time? if you expand your mind a little further you'll remember a certain james jakes was in with a shout of the title at the end of the year.

and i stand by what i said about hogan. don't forget, he won races against jarvis and di resta so to dismiss him because he isn't 'doing a hamilton' as you put it is pretty daft.

[Gaz]

Jarvis and McIntosh won races...something that James Jakes has still failed to do during his single seater career and to be honest has never really looked in a position to win - I see him as the nearly man.

How many races has Paddy won in Renaults prior to this season - I haven't done any research but it can't be more than 1-2?

Look at the stand out drivers that have gone on to bigger and better things from this championship - they've all either dominated our really showed potential in their first years (disregard last season as I don't regard Jarvis/McIntosh as future F1 drivers, just damn quick drivers), Paddy has done neither.

[boycie]

this is going nowhere, you just don't get it. hogan's experience to date - regardless of how long he's been in renault - simply cannot be matched to drivers like hamilton and green.

to compare is so unfair. you can't make direct comparisons very often in this game because there are so many factors to consider.

with the extra experience hogan has and, what seems to me like a new-found maturity on the track, i am certain he will go on to at least match a driver like jarvis. and we mustn't forget the level of experience someone like jarvis has.

[Gaz]

But again I'm debating with someone who has a blatent link to the man himself so your always going to be biased!

Jamie Green had no experience of cars bar the Winter Series, came in and finished 2nd in the championship - thats NO Experience. Hamilton came in and finished 3rd in the championship first year, won it the second.

Jarvis had done a years Formula Ford and then stepped up and raced Renault for 2 years and won.

Now Paddy might not have a stella karting career behind him but he's got 3 years experience in this championship. Now in his 3rd year there surely can be no excuse - inexperience cannot be a factor this season as he's racing many first year and second year guys.

I also find him a bit arrogant by some of the comments I've read particularly pre-season - he made the same comments last season and look what happened!

[ukkartace]

i think its a bit hard to make direct comparisons because it really depends how long it takes for the so called click to happen to drivers in car racing.

one things is for certain paddy won something like 8 races last year so his speed is surely not a debate topic, he had some big shunts and non finishes which obviously affected his championship hopes. but staying in it for another year means that he will have no excuses and unfortunately...ppl will raise the question

[boycie]

firstly gaz, i have no link to hogan so you're wrong there. i happen to rate him as a racing car driver and more so because of his total lack of experience prior to coming into zip or whatever it was he started in.

you can't say someone like green had no experience prior to cars, he had huge experience from karting and while different disciplines the experience it gives you, especially in racecraft, is priceless.

who's making excuses anyway? i think hogan will win it and if he can find the finances be a very good driver in f3 or beyond. green and hamilton have had huge backing for years, a luxury hogan hasn't enjoyed at all.

there's also the point that just because you may not win titles, or even races at this stage in the case of james jakes, it doesn't mean you're untalented and won't go on to better things.

di resta didn't exactly set the world alight in renault and yet he's making a pretty good job of euro f3 this year.

ukkartace is being a bit over generous though, i think hogan may have won perhaps three or four last year but not eight!