UK Formula Renault - The Invisible Championship

[Gaz]

I'm not sure he won that many 1-2 at best but I can't find results.

Drivers like Green and Hamilton did have massive karting experience I agree and if we were comparing Green and Hamilton with Hogan as first year drivers then your point would stand but we're not. Hogan has been in this championship 3 YEARS - thats a massive amount of time. Maybe in past years you could take his inexperience as a reason but this year he should be dominant against an opposition of average drivers and rookies finding there feet. If it was Hamilton, Green or even Sam Bird in their 3rd year racing and in that seat I'm sure they'd be doing a better job.

He must know these cars inside out now, and I can't see that racecraft can be an issue as again he's been racing 3 years and racing in cars especially Renault is very different to karts as I'm sure UKkartace could justify.

I don't understand your budget comments, Paddy has always ran for good teams - Manor and AKA are two of the three best in Renault and running with Manor last year. If he goes to F3 he'll be like James Jakes 6-7 most afternoons.

Do you seriously see Jakes and Paddy has drivers with the potential of the Hamilton's of this world regardless of what backing they have? I didn't think Jamie Green was particularly well backed until he shone so well in Renault and then F3 anyway?

I think Paddy will win the title this year don't get me wrong and I think he is a good driver but anyone thinking he's the next big thing is very much mistaken in my view.

[sceptic]

I think he will win too, but only because there doesn't seem to be a credible threat.

Hohenthal has been very disappointing - I predicted he would run away with it, but he hasn't and I can't understand why he hasn't had the pace.

Sam Bird will get stronger as the year goes on but I think he's left it too late to start getting results.

[boycie]

gaz, i make no comparison with hamilton and haven't done - he seems to be a class apart and that has been apparent for some time.

i never said hogan is the next 'big thing' either. what i have said is that i am confident he will win the renault championship this year and i am also sure he will go on to win f3 races.

if you want to know about budget troubles, speak with hogan direct as i'm sure he will put you straight. just because he is with aka and was with manor before, it doesn't mean he has an endless pot.

clearly, you're not someone who has been in a position to understand this especially with your green comment. from what i have been told he had good backing throughout karting and immense funding for renault. this is the problem with forums, too many people say un-informed things.

sceptic is right about hohenthal too, i'm at a miss to explain why he hasn't been able to hook things up.

[Gaz]

Clearly you must have a link to Hogan to know his business ins and outs so that contradicts what you said in an earlier post.

I'm not interested in debating with people who aren't impartial as then opinions become blinkered and that happens all too often on this forum.

In terms of Hohenthal he's in the same mould as Paddy - quick on his day but not a consistent front running performer. He showed that last year and again has shown it this year - he won at Knockhill and then next time out will probably be 7th-8th.

[Murray15]

The fact that Hogan was able to beat the likes of Jarvis and McIntosh,even if it was only once or twice, shows that his pace can't be questioned,its just a case of him gathering the experience to be able to do it enough times during the year to be crowned champion at the end. A driver in their third year of the same series wont get any more pace out of their car than they did in their second year, look at james walker in f3 for example.

The fact that Raikonnen, Green, Hamilton etc. (although they are obviously hugely talented) were able to dominate an equality championship that was designed to have close racing (same cars, tyres, engines) just shows that the rest of the field in those years werent up to it. Drivers just shouldnt be able to do that and the fact that it's not happening this year shows that there are a good few drivers that could have great careers ahead of them.

[Gaz]

I see where your coming from but look at the year Green raced and the drivers he beat - Hamilton being one of them. I remember reading the motorsportnews preview that year and there was something like 20 drivers who had been crowned at previous levels racing in it - that was when you knew you were something if you could show your hand.

I don't think any of the drivers racing this season at the front have won anything significant in their racing careers (Dean Smith being the only one with BMW title) before ending up here and none have really showed themselves in previous years in this category.

I agree its competitive and a lot of drivers are at the same level but that isn't the kind of level that would have won them races if they were to be in this same position racing in previous seasons.

Its all folly of course because you would never know for certain but when you look back in 5 years time at the drivers racing in the series today I think you'll see very very few of the names still racing compeitively.

[bella]

going to address a load of everyones points here...

Originally Posted by ukkartace

but staying in it for another year means that he will have no excuses and unfortunately...ppl will raise the question

this is spot on. defend speed, pace etc all you like but in the end, there's no excuses, that's just the way the world works.

Originally Posted by boycie

di resta didn't exactly set the world alight in renault and yet he's making a pretty good job of euro f3 this year.

he wasn't too great last year, there seemed to be a lot of beginners mistakes (iirc), and he threw a win away at hockenheim this year too. once he's done raising the rest of his game to the same level as his obvious speed he'll be very good...

Originally Posted by gaz

I think Paddy will win the title this year don't get me wrong and I think he is a good driver but anyone thinking he's the next big thing is very much mistaken in my view.

agreed. none of us mean to take anything away from his levels of acheivement which are good, but on the basis of the past few years it is difficult to see an uber-talent. but has paddy been in frenault for 3 years due to wanting to learn or finances?

who *does* look like being good? is there anyone in their first few seasons of racing who should be watched? i'm interested in the other end of the field as much as anything.

[Gaz]

I've been disappointed thus far with the level of talent in the lesser British single seater series in general this year Bella - I've not seen anyone thats really made me stand up and think they're mega.

Spotted several solid runners around and about but bar Sam Bird I've not seen anyone that I say has read strong potential although as I've stated before I would like to see Duncan Tappy driving a Fortec or a Manor car so I could really gauge his talent levels.

If Bird doesn't win the Autosport Award this year I'll be very surprised - the hardest part will be picking enough drivers worthy enough to be entered on current form!

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Gaz

I'm not sure he won that many 1-2 at best but I can't find results.

Just to clear this point up, Hogan won 4 FRenault races last year, 3 in the main ch'ship (only 2 less than Jarvis and Mcintosh who have loads more experience than him) and 1 in the winter ch'ship.

[boycie]

gaz you answered your own arguement. you can't say a driver would or wouldn't have been competitive if he/she was up against someone from a season gone by, there are too many factors.

in response to bella, i wonder if hogan would have been trying his hand at f3 this year if he could have raised the budget. i'm fairly certain i heard him say at the end of last year he fancied the step up, i may have that wrong though.

obviously, if he could only raise renault money that's why he has remained and don't forget, he knows the incredible pressure on him to win the title because if he doesn't then what will some people be saying? personally, even if he doesn't win i don't think it will be damaging.

i still think hogan's aka mate jeremy metcalfe will pull some good results out of the bag during the second half of the season. he is very much someone to watch in my eyes and valle makela is looking stronger all the time too.

i do agree if duncan tappy was in one of the established teams i think he would be fighting inside the top ten already, not down the order where he currently seems to be.

i know this is club, but richard singleton in renault barc looks very promising indeed. so does the oakes lad.

[boycie]

Originally Posted by runshaw

Just to clear this point up, Hogan won 4 FRenault races last year, 3 in the main ch'ship (only 2 less than Jarvis and Mcintosh who have loads more experience than him) and 1 in the winter ch'ship.

nice one runshaw. proves jarvis and mcintosh certainly didn't dominate over drivers like hogan in the way gaz would like to suggest.

[runshaw]

Yes I think Gaz needs to sort out some of his facts. You can't state a driver hasn't won more than 1-2 races when you don't actually know.

Also Jarvis hadn't done just 1 year of FFord before getting to FRenault (as Gaz pointed out again), he had done 2, including 2 winter series ch'ships. Now if my maths are correct, that means Hogan is in his 4th year of racing altogther, as Jarvis WAS in his championship winning year last year. And also mentioning Hogan's arrogance before the start of the season: if drivers want to succeed in racing they are arrogant. Hogan stated that he would 'no doubt be FRenault champion by the end of the year'. And after 8 rounds, he is sitting at the top of the table: therefore he has every right to be arrogant.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by boycie

i do agree if duncan tappy was in one of the established teams i think he would be fighting inside the top ten already, not down the order where he currently seems to be.

I'd like to think the same about Dean Smith.


So, predictions for Young Driver finalists?

Six from: Tappy, Metcalfe, Dempsey, Bird, Oakes, Singleton, Keen, Barnes

[Gaz]

I don't think I said McIntosh and Jarvis dominated - I also said I didn't think either was the next big thing but thought they both showed more talent than Hogan.

Jarvis did domiante the opening part of the season but then played the percentage game - neither I classify in the same league as Hamilton, Green or Raikkonen during their Renault days - I just feel from watching them that they have shown more promise.

In terms of his wins thanks for the info - the Winter one doesn't really count as the opposition is often limited, proven by the roll call of recent winners and how they've gone on to do in the main championship the subsequent year.

Last year was a lean year as well in terms of talent in my opinion, just this year is even more so. The series hasn't really produced since the Hamilton year.

In terms of Young Driver - Bird, Smith, Oakes, Singleton has looked good I agree and beyond that your just picking anyone to fill the roll call.

[sceptic]

Smith has done nothing to warrant Young Driver this year, Metcalfe on the other hand is second in F. Renault

Dempsey is as dominant in F Ford as Singleton is in BARC Renault, and Barnes is leading the FPA championship - and is bound to be on the list as MSV is a sponsor and Jonathan Palmer is a judge.

[Gaz]

Forgot about Dempsey, he's doing a good job in Ford's I agree although the opposition is again questionable.

Smith's not doing bad considering he's running with a new team in Coles - leading the graduate cup as well I believe? Why he wasn't selected last year on top of his BMW triumph remains a mystery to me.

Agree with your FPA call as well

[boycie]

jarvis didn't play the percentage game gaz, he just didn't have the pace at some points and started to crack.

as i said quite a while before, he was lucky at brands at the end of his, eventual, title winning season as mcintosh and jakes both lost the thing after jarvis had made a mess of qualifying and therefore let him off the hook.

young driver? is dempsey eligible, i thought he was irish?

[Gaz]

I agree he was lucky at Brands but from after Thruxton up to Donington in September he was happy to get podiums rather than wins.

If I remember his drive at Donington was brilliant but yes at Brands he was lucky. Again though I don't rate Jarvis as a future F1 star although I do feel he does have a career in some aspect of motorsport whilst Paddy's might be at a local race school!

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Gaz

Again though I don't rate Jarvis as a future F1 star although I do feel he does have a career in some aspect of motorsport whilst Paddy's might be at a local race school!

I don't understand why you insist on downplaying Hogan. As has been mentioned, Jarvis was in his 4th year in cars when he took the title, Hogan is in his 4th year, but he hasn't been backed up with a decade of karting unlike Jarvis. I agree with you that Jarvis, McIntosh and Hogan will probably not make it into the big leagues (although I would be happy if I am wrong)- but saying sarcastically that Hogan will end up as an instructor is bloody harsh. He is leading the flamin' championship with 3 wins to his credit already, and we aren't even half way through the season.

I agree that 3 years in a formula is tantamount to career stagnation, but if you win the UK FRenault ch'ship it isn't going to go unnoticed. After all, he is only doing 1 more season than Hamilton, Jarvis etc etc, and that is maybe a good thing, so he can catch up on all the years of karting he never did and hone his skills before moving up the ladder too soon against drivers much more experienced than him. When he won the Johnny Herbert rockingham scholarship thing Herbert said he thinks Paddy will go all the way, that obvioulsy remains to be seen, but that aint a half bad testimonial is it?

[Gaz]

True, but he's hardly not going to big up someone thats won a scholarship with his name on it is he!

I've said Paddy is a pretty good driver and that he will win this years title - I'm pretty confident of that. Beyond that I see him doing not much though, unless he can afford 3 years of F3 and 3 years of GP2 - he might just about get himself into a winning position then!

This forum sometimes makes me laugh though, the number of average, hopeless or down right awful drivers who are backed by people on here and 'big upped' is ridiculous (this doesn't refer to you runshaw as I believe you to be impartial). The drivers/partners that are actually going somewhere with their careers never have to associate to such tactics , they do their talking on the circuit - quite a coincidence that aint it?

[boycie]

gaz you are full of it! what do you know about the ability of drivers like hogan?

the most laughable thing about these forums is the way people like you can say un-informed rubbish about people. so you're now saying hogan is awful are you?

[Gaz]

I am entitled to an opinion on him just like you are - just cos you don't agree doesn't mean I'm wrong!

Fortunately I'm able to give an unblinkered view unlike your good self who clearly has soon form of link to this guy.

I've not said he's rubbish - he's good at the level he's at at the moment, any higher and he'll struggle - perhaps I should just say Hogan's the best, he'll win the Renault championship by Knockhill, move to F3 win every race, nearly nip the title from under Senna's nose, move straight to F1 in the process steeling the McLaren seat from under Hamilton's nose and become world champion in 2007? That ok for you?

[No 4]

For a change, I find myself agreeing with Gaz!!

As someone connected to a driver, I'm Jamie Morrow's father, I realise how easy it is to get drawn in to talking up his abilities.

We all want to see out off-spring protegees do well and obviously it's disapointing when for one reason or another, lack of funding in Jamie's case, they don't produce the results.

However, regardless of the reasons, if their not delivering, then the bottom line is they cannot be compared to those who are producing wins.

In this context, the Hogan/Hamilton comparison is a no brainer. To date Hogan's record does not compare to Hamilton's. Therefore, right now, Hamilton is demonstrably the better driver.

This is not to say, that situations can't change, but until then facts are facts.

[No 4]

That should have said .... see our protogees....

[Gaz]

Wow, I think this could be the start of a whole new relationship No4!