My Tracks Raceway 5

[Alwaysfirst]

Well...........I have increased the radius of the last of the esses leading down a short straight into the hairpin.....similar to Forrest Elbow at Bathurst with that steep downhill gradient leading into the flatter but all new stadium section!!!!!! A straight leads down to a quick chicane-kind of like the first swimming pool esse at Monaco. This leads (after a short straight) into an open left hander. This in turn leads into a tighter lefthander onto a long straight leading to the penultimate corner. I can see this as being quite an uphill straight so that the last 2 corners can sweep downhill a la Bosch Kurve (Osterreichring) or the last few corners at Lime Rock Park. It also leaves more room for pits & paddock.

I put in the chicane as a quick but challenging corner that would also have the benefit of slowing the cars into the first of the 2 left handers allowing grandstands to follow the entire complex which would create a great atmosphere. Afterall a great circuit is improved further by a great atmosphere around it!

I'll leave you to choose which version you think is better.....

[Helicon_One]

Thought I'd try an edit of an edit on Alwaysfirst's course. I bumped some of the features northwards (assuming up=north) to make more room for pits and paddock facilities, and removed the infield loop for the moment.

Tim

[Alwaysfirst]

I'm not really that keen on that edit. I feel that with the loss of both the crossover & the stadium section something big is missing from that part of the tract & that simple parabolica-style bend just doesn't do it for me there. I also feel that the last section is no longer as flowing as it was. It was the best part about the original track IMO. I also feel that after the esses a short straight is needed to provide some kind of overtaking oppertunity. I'm not sure about the tightened Caroussel either.

I do think that there would now be enough room for a reasonable-sized pits/paddock in my stadium edit.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

How about just adjusting the stadium section a little, giving the extra space that Helicon_One seems to think it would need.

[Alwaysfirst]

I don't mind that.It was one of the things that I was planning on doing-I just didn't want to loose an infield section. It works well like that though because it leaves more paddock space as well as keeping the fast sections in.

[Rockmunky]

This is a tricky one this time...the last corner just seems very... dull, if i'm honest. But saying that, i'm not really sure what could be done about it, as thats a fairly substantial straight before it...

[shambles]

I like the chunky last corner, I'm not one to blow my own trumpet - but I think my final section works perfectly. I imagine it would a lot of rolling gradient, go and have a look - and tell me what you think, with the kind of high speed chicane, which is more two quick corners.

[Alwaysfirst]

Nooooooo!!!! Don't even consider getting rid of a corner that fast & incredible!!!! Remember some of the best circuits are the ones that look boring on paper but when you think about them they are great....Osterreichring.......Reims.......Rouen.....old Silverstone. Think of all the possibilities for later when we seriously think about gradients & stuff like that!!!!!

[shambles]

I agree

[the_royksopp]

To be honest, this is really a lacklustre track. It's got nothing in the way of excitement, interestingness or challenge, and i think that's somewhat of a general feeling concerning this.

I decided finally to have a crack at this, and i ended up pretty much hacksawing the entire piece of mediocrity, but i somewhat hope that this edit will move the track along the lines of more realistic and interesting track designing, and i really hope that this will perhaps stir up some of the older designers, like myself, who have been fairly silent in this project so far, perhaps due to the track's bad appearance.

Now, let me tour you guys through my changes.

I am not a great fan of open first corners, but there seems to be a feeling of optimism around it, so i let it stay. The chicane afterwards is nice, but i really felt a corner was more appropriate here.

I originally planned to include "the first finger" of the track i edited from, but it just didn't fit into the picture, so i decided to go with the nice, long, relieving straightaway.

The next section, which is now the top-most part of the track, i originally placed on the tip of the "second finger", but i couldnt figure what to put in between the fingers, so i scrapped that entire concept. I feel the tight left followed by a loop is very interesting and challenging.

The esses-section i kept, although i refurbished it slightly. Coming out of this, i placed a hairpin - the only proper one on track. Compare this section to the section at Bahrain, right before the infield, increasing apex corner - that'd be corners 3-5 if you discount the kinks after turn 1.

The infield i am not entirely happy with, but something needs to be there - otherwise the track would assume sort of a triangular shape. Not that realistic, and not particularly aesthetic either. I placed an increasing apex corner, much in line with Sunway Lagoon at Sepang - some of you know that i have got somewhat of a fetish with that type of corner . The apex is sorrounded by two straights, just for the fun of it.

The final section i really like. It starts off with a fairly tight righthander, and curls into a somewhat tight lefthander. This would be very challenging for the drivers to manouvre through, and would be the scene of quite nice duels. Then follows an interesting, righthanded corner, increasing, then decreasing, leading up to the final corner of the track - a tight lefthander, almost a 180, to lead back to the straightaway.

MTR project V, version TR 1.0

[Purist]

TR, in this case your edit does NOT seem to be an improvement by any means. It's much more of that formulaic form (straight into tight corner, then another straight).

SBF's most recent version may not be "F1 worthy', but I have to echo AF's comments about it. Frankly, given the proper elevation changes, I'd say that that previous version would be a much better circuit. Both versions have three rather apparent overtaking zones (TR, that run into the hairpin on the right side is not long enough to set up a good run), so yours isn't ahead in that department. That previous iteration has more high speed corners and a better flow. I really don't like your final section in particular. It might help having a more varying radius to that final, long 180 in SBF's version, but either way, that long corner sets up the start/finish stretch very nicely (kind of like 300R did at Fuji).

To be honest, while I don't particularly care for yourse TR, I have only one complaint about SBF's layout. The "straight out of the stadium doesn't exactly fit with the rest of the course, and there is a lot of open space below, but really, I don't know what exactly I'd add along that stretch.

[shambles]

T_R, what's with the snotty nosed attitude to your post? Why do you need to condemn the efforts of everyone else? Do you see yourself as the king of track design or something?

I'm not sparking an argument, so I'll leave that at that - but about your track, not really a big fan. The corners are pretty much in the main too angular, and what is with the nipple at the end of the track?

All in all, it's a step in the wrong direction, for my money - and I think maybe for a lot of others too, in my opinion A_F's is the way we should be going with this one.

[nickyf1]

I thought TR's version was a little bit repetitive in places, so here.

[Rockmunky]

Originally Posted by the_royksopp

To be honest, this is really a lacklustre track. It's got nothing in the way of excitement, interestingness or challenge, and i think that's somewhat of a general feeling concerning this.

I decided finally to have a crack at this, and i ended up pretty much hacksawing the entire piece of mediocrity, but i somewhat hope that this edit will move the track along the lines of more realistic and interesting track designing, and i really hope that this will perhaps stir up some of the older designers, like myself, who have been fairly silent in this project so far, perhaps due to the track's bad appearance.

What is meant by that last section? Are you saying that somehow the "older" designers are better, simply because they have been here longer?
Forgive me if im wrong but, it appearts as though your posts have a "holier than thou" attitude towards the newer members, it's not very fair either, as alot fo the members new and old have posted some cracking efforts, in this thread and others. I get no feeling that you have respect for some of the newer members, maybe you do, but it often doesn't come across that way, i've kept this feeling to myself for a while, but i think it's about time you know how myself and a few tohers here feel about your attitude.

Don't take this as "sour grapes" but your edit itself, is rather boring if i'm honest, not a fan of the straight, tight corner, straight layout, as Purist said it's rather Formulaeic. So i think that we should go back to the other circuit, in which i felt we were making some progress, albeit rather slowly..

[the_royksopp]

Well, my analysis is based on, that the other MTR-project have moved along much swifter, and not much time passed before the track looked decent. This project is moving along much slowlier, and the track, so far, doesn't seem to have the class of the earlier ones - in my opinion.

I don't feel like replying to comments indicating that there's some kind of conflict between older and newer members here. All i can say is, that there are good and bad track designers, and potential to become good or bad track designers in every one of us, and that more experience in track designing might be able to raise one's skill. It would be best if everybody was involved in this project, but right now, i can't seem to find anybody of the older guard. That might be due to the track - and it might not.

But let's stop the pillowfight here now, it is, after all, only a track .

[shambles]

Yes Sir.

[V8_TURBO]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

I thought TR's version was a little bit repetitive in places, so here.

It looks like a sumo wrestlers head.

[jab]

Regarding the comments about the final corner, I based it on the final corners at Estoril and Fuji, albeit longer than the former and tighter than the latter

AF, I like your 2nd edit (the one minus the crossover). I think I'll have a go myself in a mo

T_R, no offence, but that might as well be a completely separate circuit. It has virtually nothing in common with my base layout

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Purist

SBF's most recent version may not be "F1 worthy', but I have to echo AF's comments about it. Frankly, given the proper elevation changes, I'd say that that previous version would be a much better circuit. .... It might help having a more varying radius to that final, long 180 in SBF's version, but either way, that long corner sets up the start/finish stretch very nicely (kind of like 300R did at Fuji).

...I have only one complaint about SBF's layout. The "straight out of the stadium doesn't exactly fit with the rest of the course, and there is a lot of open space below, but really, I don't know what exactly I'd add along that stretch.

I'm not quite sure why you think my version is not "F1 worthy" as it's the same as AF posted only I angled the infield/stadium section a little and added to the existing access straights to that section. This was to give a larger area for paddock facilities.

[Purist]

I know why you moved the stadium further up in the diagram, SBF. Also, the other posters have been fairly acceptant of your rationale for dng so. Thus, it seems most prudent to look at editing your version at this stage, rather than AF's.

The "F1 worthy" bit was more in response to TR's "realistic" comments. To be honest, contrary to what TR says, the AF/SBF version of the track has more proper "straightaway' than Spa-Francorchamps, and as much as Road America. And those are two tracks I don't think TR is going to bad mouth. Also, in light of long, fairly "open" road courses like Miller Motorsports Park, a lengthy, flowing track like we have created is not that unconventional, even for a new track.

I will turn my final comments back to you SBF, but I preface this by saying I do NOT want any of the sections I mention here changed because of my comments. I do have some basis for calling the track not "F1 worthy". The biggest thing is that high-speed, decreasing-radius corners, like the latter part of the long left-hander between the two "fingers", are pretty much inpermissable in F1 (look at the changes made to 100R and 300R at Fuji). In addition, though not officially in the rules, there generally are not really long high-speed runs on new Grand Prix circuits. The track you and AF have been working on has two such sections. There is the run from the top of the first "finger" around to the hairpin on the right side of the diagram, and then there is the run that exits the stadium, rounds that final 180, and includes the start/finish stretch up to the right/left flick at Turn 2. However, as I said, I personally would NOT do anything to those sections.

I really think it is a great track, even with my one comment from a previous post regarding the "straight" that exits the stadium.

[jab]

Done a slight extension to SBF's version, which cuts the long flat out run:

[shambles]

I think it's too angular for the circuit, it doesn't fit - the idea of an extention could possibly work; but I think it'd need to fit in with the character of the track a little more.

[Lustigson]

Gentlemen (and girls, if there should be any ), there's been some discussion about the initial track and it's edits. TR has made quite a big change to it. Those changes are, however, so radical that I see the result as an entirely different track. However, that new track is quite good in itself. So, I propose to keep working on the initial track and take the time, perhaps in an other thread, to work on TR's version.

Here's my thoughts on the second-last proposal, 'cause I'm not too fond of that little blob jab added.

[jab]

I like that. Sort of reminds me of Bahrain, but better

[the_royksopp]

Yeah, i think the open first corner should be retained though, perhaps with some sort of section after it, as in jabs edit, although not exactly that one.

And i still don't really love the infield - the rest of the track however is coming together nicely.