BTCC 2018 in-season discussion

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

The Passat CC has never produced a Champion.

There has never been a Passat CC in the BTCC, so it's hardly likely to ever produce one either?

The following current cars have also not produced a BTCC champion (by the metric in your spreadsheet) - does that mean they are bad cars too and the teams running them should give up?

Vauxhall Astra,
Ford Focus RS,
Toyota Avensis,
Mercedes A-Class...…

What is the point being made in pointing out that the VW CC has not produced a champion?

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There has never been a Passat CC in the BTCC, so it's hardly likely to ever produce one either?

Unless my memory has failed me again, the cars when originally entered by HARD where Passat CC's. VW facelifted the road car (new bumpers and lights basically) and rechristened it CC. The racecars subsequently were facelifted with new cosmetics.

So yes, we have had VW Passat CC's in BTCC.

Mr Plato very nearly was champion in one in 2015: only the drive of Sheddens life denied him that.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Unless my memory has failed me again, the cars when originally entered by HARD where Passat CC's. VW facelifted the road car (new bumpers and lights basically) and rechristened it CC. The racecars subsequently were facelifted with new cosmetics.

So yes, we have had VW Passat CC's in BTCC.

Mr Plato very nearly was champion in one in 2015: only the drive of Sheddens life denied him that.

The first CC appeared in 2013, VW dropped the 'Passat' name from the car in 2012. So even though many people referred to it as Passat, this was technically incorrect.

You are right, the cars were entered as Passat CC's, but they should not have been referred to as such. The cars entered in 2013 already had the 2012 onwards VW front end. This can be seen in the shape of the lights:



2011 Passat CC


2012 VW CC


2013 Kraftwerk CC



Although back to the point of the cars entered, they are proven to be capable and achieved a number of championships. They may have come short of the overall drivers' title (just) - but then so have many makes over the years. When will we see a Focus or Avensis driver take the overall title? And does that mean Gilham was wrong to bring the cars into the BTCC?

[Jiiiiiiim]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

well they cant get someone "new", AWE is certainly an appreciated driver at AMD and neither of the last 2 dates clash with mini challenge, I would imagine Glynn has got the 2 races he cant do to show hes a better prospect than AWE before Silverstone and Brands.

Tho assuming Ant is back in for Silverstone, will he have the ballast penalty again?

Don’t count on it being AWE, there may be leniency regarding an additional driver change.

[3marinadrive]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The first CC appeared in 2013, VW dropped the 'Passat' name from the car in 2012. So even though many people referred to it as Passat, this was technically incorrect.

You are right, the cars were entered as Passat CC's, but they should not have been referred to as such. The cars entered in 2013 already had the 2012 onwards VW front end. This can be seen in the shape of the lights:



2011 Passat CC


2012 VW CC


2013 Kraftwerk CC



Although back to the point of the cars entered, they are proven to be capable and achieved a number of championships. They may have come short of the overall drivers' title (just) - but then so have many makes over the years. When will we see a Focus or Avensis driver take the overall title? And does that mean Gilham was wrong to bring the cars into the BTCC?

If you remember in 2016 when BKR ran Aron Smith in the VW it was up and down - and Aron was an experienced, race winning driver, and he Won at the Rock...but the car was essentially the car that Turks and Plato had been so competitive with in 2015....

Fast forward to 2017...VW with Team HARD...now running with RML components and virtually no pre-season testing...two strong drivers in Hill and Epps....Hill qualified in the top-ten in half of the races....but reliability meant that pace didn't transfer into results....up until Bushell qualifying well at Snett and Rockingham it's been no-where near like 2017.

Basically in 2016 - 2017 - 2018 VW was different each season. No decent budget to test = an element of an educated guess....talented drivers like Bushell, Caine, Hill, Thompson AND Welch have not been able to run where the promised 'Kingston' updates should have allowed them....

That an a restricted budget has meant that corners seem to have been cut...look at the unreliability recently ....and a driver as talented as Hill felt his best option was to move away...having fought hard to get into BTCC...that says it all about how things have been.

Good for them they are now showing pace....but really only for Bushell...they need to have all the cars on the pace to show real strength.

[S griffin]

It's hard to get a car on the pace when the field is so competitive. Getting into the top 15 at all is an achievement

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

sport needs people like Tony,a TRUE privateer, you may not openly like or support him or his team, but he is the underdog you want to see do well, just that one time.

Team Hard are basically the Leicester City, the Jordan F1 team, the Tim Henman that none of us really supported, and we knew they weren't really good enough, but we all felt good when they had their day in the sun

I disagree. A true privateer doesn't overdo things or get ideas above their station too much. If they do, they usually learn and reign themselves back in.

[peebee2]

I always thought the choice of VW was a naive hope to get some sort of manufacturer backing. All I saw the the hideous fibreglass front bumper.

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

But nobody said "outright champion", are you saying teams, independent teams and independent drivers championships don't really count? I made the point that the Passat CC was a championship winning car 2 seasons after Hard introduced it in 2013. Clearly you hadn't thought through the facts when trying to tell me i was wrong.

Not to me, they don't and I'm not stupid.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

Not to me, they don't and I'm not stupid.

Does that mean people who do think those championships count are stupid?

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Does that mean people who do think those championships count are stupid?

Is this normally how this forum treats Autistic people such as myself?

[btccbloke]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

Is this normally how this forum treats Autistic people such as myself?

You said the teams and independent championships aren't important and you were shown an example of teams being proud of their achievement in winning them. That has nothing to do with autism.

To be honest this has dragged on a bit long now since you tried to tell me the VW had never won a championship and I think we can put it to bed that it has, regardless how important YOU consider the championships it has won.

Although I must say (and to keep it on topic) that until Bushell and to an extent Thompson this weekend, I was expecting the 4 chassis to end up scrapped at the end of the season, now im expecting Hard to persevere a bit longer

[Racer65]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

Is this normally how this forum treats Autistic people such as myself?

And how was anyone supposed to know that before you updated your profile?

I'm on the autistic spectrum myself but I don't make a song and dance about it and I know not to constantly post and dig myself into a hole. Just take a breath and ask yourself if it's really worth making the post or not.

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

You said the teams and independent championships aren't important and you were shown an example of teams being proud of their achievement in winning them. That has nothing to do with autism.

To be honest this has dragged on a bit long now since you tried to tell me the VW had never won a championship and I think we can put it to bed that it has, regardless how important YOU consider the championships it has won.

Although I must say (and to keep it on topic) that until Bushell and to an extent Thompson this weekend, I was expecting the 4 chassis to end up scrapped at the end of the season, now im expecting Hard to persevere a bit longer

I did not say that, I said the VW had never produced a Champion as in an outright Driver's Champion, it's not my fault I seem to be talking Double Dutch all the time! The VW's past achievements aside, I really thought at one point, it was going to score a podium on merit and not because of freak conditions like at Brands. I really sorry for Bushell when he lost that 3rd place and Bobby T's clearly getting better and even Caine may have scored a point today with better luck. The real hero today was Smiley, he's threatening to win pretty much all season and now he's done it, so congrats to him. Will we get a 13th winner? We did last year.

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Originally Posted by Racer65

And how was anyone supposed to know that before you updated your profile?

I'm on the autistic spectrum myself but I don't make a song and dance about it and I know not to constantly post and dig myself into a hole. Just take a breath and ask yourself if it's really worth making the post or not.

Whatever

[B0U170NS]

btccbloke, you should have made it clear what championship you were referring to. 'The championship', as you called it, in my eyes is the drivers championship.

On a different note, I would be very surprised if speedworks aren't a 2 car team next year. They have the best car and there are several drivers who I'm sure would love to get their hands on it.

[btccbloke]

Originally Posted by B0U170NS

btccbloke, you should have made it clear what championship you were referring to. 'The championship', as you called it, in my eyes is the drivers championship.

On a different note, I would be very surprised if speedworks aren't a 2 car team next year. They have the best car and there are several drivers who I'm sure would love to get their hands on it.

Speedworks spent a long time deliberating over car choice this year, it wouldnt surprise me if they were to use a different car next year, perhaps a newer Toyota (as i think the Avensis is discontinued?) and works backing

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

Speedworks spent a long time deliberating over car choice this year, it wouldnt surprise me if they were to use a different car next year, perhaps a newer Toyota (as i think the Avensis is discontinued?) and works backing

Two car team running the future NGTC Hybrid as a development, would suit a Toyota works team.

Maybe a certain Jason Plato would like to be in it?

[Nononsensecapeesh]

I don't have a fave for the title but it would be great to see Tingram win the title, a small team with a single entry overcoming the might of 4 works teams and all those privateer teams with multiple entries, plus a Toyota driver hasn't won the BTCC since Chris Hodgetts in 86 and 87.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

Is this normally how this forum treats Autistic people such as myself?

Autistic, Altruistic, Artistic, Agnostic - I can't speak for the whole forum, but it makes no difference to me when I respond to a post.

I read a single sentence that states that only the main drivers' championship counts, and that the poster is not stupid. To me, this sentence implies that those who do place value in the other championships are stupid - and so I made a post highlighting how some teams do place value in the championships - and so are being labelled as 'stupid'!

I'm not sure how this can be interpreted as a reaction to autism?!?!

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

I don't have a fave for the title but it would be great to see Tingram win the title, a small team with a single entry overcoming the might of 4 works teams and all those privateer teams with multiple entries, plus a Toyota driver hasn't won the BTCC since Chris Hodgetts in 86 and 87.

I think Tingram will do it. The nearest challenger, Turkington, his car just isnt strong enough in the areas needed.

Turks might get top 10 at Knockhill but he will be no where at Silverstone and Brands GP.

[S griffin]

Tingram seems to be very good from recovering from misfortunes. See Snetterton and Rockingham. It would be great to see two Speedworks Toyotas, but they'd probably have to get works backing for that

[thlbtcc]

Several drivers now out of the championship hunt in my book. It's shaping up to a three-way fight.

Expecting Sutton and Turkington (especially in races 2 and 3) to do well at Knockhill, Ingram to fight back at Silverstone.

4th-9th in the table is close now, but they need to be within 40 points after the Knockhill round to seriously have a title tilt.

[thlbtcc]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It would be great to see two Speedworks Toyotas, but they'd probably have to get works backing for that

Fingers crossed Mr Toyoda is watching (wishful thinking perhaps). Two Gazoo Racing all-new Auris models would be very nice.

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Autistic, Altruistic, Artistic, Agnostic - I can't speak for the whole forum, but it makes no difference to me when I respond to a post.

I read a single sentence that states that only the main drivers' championship counts, and that the poster is not stupid. To me, this sentence implies that those who do place value in the other championships are stupid - and so I made a post highlighting how some teams do place value in the championships - and so are being labelled as 'stupid'!

I'm not sure how this can be interpreted as a reaction to autism?!?!

Well I'm not calling anyone stupid anymore than anyone's calling me stupid so stop accusing me of things I haven't done and just drop it. At least the VW's coming good again with Team HARD at long last.