Does how you win matter more now than it did while Senna and Prost were racing?

[sauber c9]

Senna did not lose the 89 wdc in the courtroom, he lost it on the track when he tried a desperation move on prost with 5 laps left in a race in which prost was leading from the start. While true that prost turned in on senna, the fact of the matter is that senna should not have been there to be turned in on because his overtaking manouvre came from away back. In addition, the championship would have went to prost in any event as senna crashed into the back of brundle at adelaide (senna had to be victorious in australia to win the championship).
As for 1990, deliberately taking prost off at the start at a high speed part of the track was cowardly not to mention dangerous.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by sauber c9
Senna did not lose the 89 wdc in the courtroom, he lost it on the track when he tried a desperation move on prost

Well, clearly Ralf Schumacher has yet to corner the market on stupid.

[paulzinho]

Originally posted by sauber c9
In addition, the championship would have went to prost in any event as senna crashed into the back of brundle at adelaide (senna had to be victorious in australia to win the championship).

Who's to say that would have been the case? With a title at stake the approach may have been different?

But yeah you make a good point.

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by krt917
As for the equal cars, I'd like to know where you get that idea from. I've read on more than one occassion (most recently in Motor Sport, I beleive) that whilst Prost may have been 'McLarens' man, Senna was 'Hondas' man and whereas McLaren always seemed to give equal cars, Honda apparently didn't always do likewise. I forget the date of the article (but will find it if necessary), but in it Prost claimed that, when he knew he was leaving he asked the Honda big-wigs about it and they virtually admitted it (at least in qualifying trim). Prost said that there were occassions when the qualifying gap seemd to big. He was prepared to accept that Ayrton was quicker in qualifying than him - of course he was - but a gap of almost two seconds on some occassions did push it sometimes.

I don't think Ayrton needed this help, but as there hae also been similar suggestions about Honda in the Mansell-Piquet days at Williams, it seems that he might hae got it.

This is a bit off topic, but - could BMW be doing the same thing these days? I know Williams provide both Ralf and Juan with equal equipment, but what about BMW? Many see Juan as 'William's' man but Ralf as 'BMW's' man. Ralf is a good driver, brilliant on occasion, but a lot of stuff happens in F1 that we don't hear about.

[Adam43]

I seriously doubt that. There is no proof and if it did come out would make BMW look bad. Besides they want both to do well and BMW say lots of nice things about Montoya.

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
I seriously doubt that. There is no proof and if it did come out would make BMW look bad. Besides they want both to do well and BMW say lots of nice things about Montoya.

Yeah, you're probably right. But I can't recall them saying much about Montoya up until now. I guess that in the 80s rumours and media were not as dominant as they are today so engine suppliers such as Honda were able to favour Senna without looking bad.

[Irv the Swerve]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Well, clearly Ralf Schumacher has yet to corner the market on stupid.

I was not going to bother, but I will ask Lee if he insults everyone who disagrees with him or are there a few chosen ones? At the end of the day, you are just text on a screen,so its really not that big a deal, but its getting to the stage that when anyone says anything you don't like - out come the insults and the put downs. If thats the way you do business then fine, no problem, but people deserve better - even those who don't have the same opinion as you.

Really, either come back with a valid arguement or agree to disagree.
So you are a Senna fan - WE GET IT!
I'm one too.

[Ralf]

Leave him alone Irv, Lee's just stuck in the 80's & can't get out

Another Ralf bash Lee?
Aaaah it's been awhile

[Mattracer]

Well, I've been not around for a few days, but basically, we're now discussing who's the best between Senna, Prost and Schumacher.

I can't remember now who said it, but I will agree, Schumachers antics he puts on after each win are a bit hollow. Some races, he has virtually walked it with a stupidly-superior technical/pit stategy and others he drove calculatingly for, yet a yawn deserves a theatrical presentation? A win is a win is a win, but thet are not all the same in they way they play out.

Prost/Senna's rivalry was arguably one of the greatest ever seen in the sport at any time. Call me a MS basher, but I defy anyone to name someone, anyone, who has held out a challenge to Schumacher on a consistent basis for as long and with such ardent determination that Senna and Prost were challeging for the WDC. There just HAVEN'T been.

By this I am NOT saying that any of MS's contemporaries are weak or not worthy of any success they have achieved. The respect was the only bond between the two, and Prost was genuinely devastated by Senna's death as he was undoubtedly the most significant adversary and colleague in his long career. Some, I can't remember who now, said that Schumacher has no respect for his rivals- how about the fans and the world media with the set-up US GP finish and <gasp> Austria '02. There, there's something to grab onto and bash people with. Apart from Suzuka '91, can anyone name a race Senna moved over in when running competitively for the win. I can't recall ANY Prost did. Different time...

[corkholio]

Originally posted by Mattracer
I can't remember now who said it, but I will agree, Schumachers antics he puts on after each win are a bit hollow. Some races, he has virtually walked it with a stupidly-superior technical/pit stategy and others he drove calculatingly for, yet a yawn deserves a theatrical presentation? A win is a win is a win, but thet are not all the same in they way they play out.

Then again, it's a lot easier not to celebrate since you weren't the one who just drove for an hour and a half and many more hours of work to get the car fast enough. Just because Montoya had a superior than anyone else at Hockenheim does it mean he should be feeling sorry for everyone else instead of feeling happy for himself?

Originally posted by Mattracer
Prost/Senna's rivalry was arguably one of the greatest ever seen in the sport at any time. Call me a MS basher, but I defy anyone to name someone, anyone, who has held out a challenge to Schumacher on a consistent basis for as long and with such ardent determination that Senna and Prost were challeging for the WDC. There just HAVEN'T been.

Prost vs Senna for the WDC essentially lasted from 88 to 90. Schumacher vs Hakkinen lasted from 98 to 2000.

Originally posted by Mattracer
By this I am NOT saying that any of MS's contemporaries are weak or not worthy of any success they have achieved. The respect was the only bond between the two, and Prost was genuinely devastated by Senna's death as he was undoubtedly the most significant adversary and colleague in his long career. Some, I can't remember who now, said that Schumacher has no respect for his rivals- how about the fans and the world media with the set-up US GP finish and <gasp> Austria '02. There, there's something to grab onto and bash people with. Apart from Suzuka '91, can anyone name a race Senna moved over in when running competitively for the win. I can't recall ANY Prost did. Different time...

Schumacher had a lot of respect for Hakkinen, the one guy who could take it to Schumacher without being a little ***** about it afterwards. Senna was leading at Spain 91 when he let Berger go so Senna himself can try and block Mansell, but luckily Mansell was too fast to be stopped. For most part Suzuka 91 was the only real chance that Senna had to gift Berger a win, and that was exactly what he did. Senna usually clinched the title so late in the season that the only race left was usually Adelaide, and Berger was usually never close enough for that to work.

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by corkholio
Then again, it's a lot easier not to celebrate since you weren't the one who just drove for an hour and a half and many more hours of work to get the car fast enough. Just because Montoya had a superior than anyone else at Hockenheim does it mean he should be feeling sorry for everyone else instead of feeling happy for himself?

Be honest now, don't you really think that jumping several feet in the air after every race win looks a bit naff?

Prost vs Senna for the WDC essentially lasted from 88 to 90. Schumacher vs Hakkinen lasted from 98 to 2000.

Err, no, there was a challenge, mathematically for quite a while, in '86, and ten there's 1993. You seem to forget that- Senna was leading the WDC in a lesser car to Prost's for several months of that season.

Schumacher had a lot of respect for Hakkinen, the one guy who could take it to Schumacher without being a little ***** about it afterwards.

Hill, did give it to TGF but wasn't a little **** about it afterwards and neither was Jacques, regardless of what has happened to him in more recent years.

Senna was leading at Spain 91 when he let Berger go so Senna himself can try and block Mansell, but luckily Mansell was too fast to be stopped.

Different team orders scenario don't you think, from the blight on the sport delivered in Austria.

For most part Suzuka 91 was the only real chance that Senna had to gift Berger a win, and that was exactly what he did. Senna usually clinched the title so late in the season that the only race left was usually Adelaide, and Berger was usually never close enough for that to work.

Too busy fighting off Prost and Mansell for anu shenanigans for the good of the team.

[Mattracer]

Sorry for messing up the reply with quote stuff, but you get my meaning?

[Splatz the Cow]

I read a wonderful article of a journo's account of an experience he'd had with Senna. Sorry I don't have it with me now, but I could find it later if peeps are desperate.

Senna went rallying one time, (with out the team knowing before hand if I remember,) and threw his car all over the place driving like a madman - or one who really loves his driving - and hung around in the cold just like anyone else there. A day or two later he showed up at the GP, with blistered hands, and I think won...

....I think Monaco...

[Smokey 6 litre]

i guess the argument is about is winning against great legends of motorsport better than winning in an easier field.
i guess to say that you had beaten Prost or Senna would be a great honour but dont forget that TGF is (or will be) a legend (even though i hate him) it just much harder to realise when that person is annoying you every two weeks or so.