Prototypes on Milk Cartons?

[Tim Northcutt]

In reent months we have talked a lot about how the FIA-SCC filed's have been spotty at best, and in some cases abysmal, and how the series doesn't have its act together, etc.

To be fair, the field at Donnington this weekend, they had a good field at Monza, and early indicators project a good field at Spa..

Estoril, Lautzring and Oschersleben were poorly attended by race teams...

To be fair and objective, the ALMS hasn't fared so well, either...

Sebring was its usual strong lineup of prototypes as the big "coming Out" party for everyone looking at going to Le Mans, and the Atlanta field had decent prototype entry lists in the two classes.

Petit will be a strong lineup as well...

But Sonoma had 12 prototypes and Trois Rivieres had 11...not quite as small as some FIA-SCC fields, but only a car or two better in most cases....

The preliminary list for Mosport looks about the same as the two recent races....

Just out of curiosity...why the silence on this issue when it comes to the ALMS????

I view both series under the same standards when it comes to prototypes.....the participation has been very spotty at best, and that is being generous...in both series....

Granted, the ALMS has GTS and GT cars in their fields, and the total entires with all four classes have been very good (35-37 cars or so)

Again....there are lots of missing cars that are sitting in garages somewhere.....and I'm not going to run through the list, because we all know who they are....

Again, to be fair, we did think that there would be some sort of fall off as the year progressed and as various teams or builders began work on 2004 Specs prototypes, but we're not seeing or hearing much about the new cars, either....

We just don't really know why the existing cars are missing...or why we haven't seen anything definitive (not even renderings or sketches) of 2004 spec prototypes....

Should we post pictures of these teams, cars, or builders on the sides of milk cartons????


This puzzles and concerns me....there should be things happening, but they are not.....

Why???? Or Why Not???


Your thoughts would be appreciated....

[LouisTheShark]

I think the ALMS has much bigger problems here than many fans want to admit. With the ACO starting their own tournament next year and Le Mans being in the middle of the year, what will we see at Sebring or any other early rounds?

In fairness, there have been some rough drawings of cars and announcements of 2004 plans, some more or less official. But I suspect most of what is being planned will be European based manufacturers and teams. I suspect the ACO tournament in 2004 will have a better and more diverse field of LMP cars than the ALMS.

[gttouring]

i agree the ACO tourney will have a better field, as so many teams are over in Europe anyway.
The ALMS is struggling as this is so far from the big race, and not that many people know enough about prototypes and it is hard to field a competitive entry really, when Audi and Co. are about. Grand am has a point on this one, as the field is fairly small, they created a class for north america only to make up front runners, the DP's sure they started out slow and GA is slowing the other cars down but The Idea is sound. Perhaps ALMS should go a similar route and import the old EUROC racers and form a prototype class with those, or get a list of customer chassis and engines to create prototypes- similar to how OpenWheel racing doesit...

[Tim Northcutt]

To Louisthe Shark:

I read this forum often, look at Mike's site, and try to keep on top of the news, and I have yet to see anything in the way or images or renderings and have read other threads about who may be building cars....but nothing seems definitive....

I think we will see more than a few 2003 specs cars running next year in whatever series (ALMS and LMES) and won't see as many 2004 specs cars due to the economics issue in the racing industry, but I feel that the ALMS will have some serious issues to sort out next year when it comes to prototypes...VAG will run the new car in Europe (most likely)...but one would think that the North American market would be of primary interest to companies like VAG, Aston Martin, and even MG, who plans to come back to North America with commercial vehicles in a few years, just to name a few....

I also agree with GTtouring...maybe ALMS should look at a handful of builders for chassis...but Panoz seems to be going into the GTS and/or Gt class, and not sticking with developing prototypes...

[GT-Eins]

I think the main issue in the lack of prototype numbers in the ALMS is the previous works-involvement. Being beaten by a works-Audi, -Caddy, -Panoz by dozends of laps does not motivate your sponsors to support you running your R&S or 333SP or developping your own car to the extend that it can compete with a 30Mio€-car like the Audis (that is roughly the amount of sum that Audi spend to develop the R8).

Being in TV only for the 8-10 occasions that Biela overlaps you does simply not help you in bringing the fundings together. Also the GTS-field is very poor in the US too - compared with the FIA-GT here.

In Europe the situation is indeed better (at least looking at Events like Donington or Monza and probably Spa). The reason for the decent grids this year is a combination of series-mismanagement and a change of regulations in 2004 connected with uncertainties for the teams.

[LouisTheShark]

It also doesn't help if one of your childish star drivers (Mr. Herbert) acts foolish at the end of the race and causes a team that just came back to the ALMS to leave again. The ALMS is also to blame for not taking the proper action which is being noticed by the smaller teams.

[chris24]

Originally posted by LouisTheShark
It also doesn't help if one of your childish star drivers (Mr. Herbert) acts foolish at the end of the race and causes a team that just came back to the ALMS to leave again. The ALMS is also to blame for not taking the proper action which is being noticed by the smaller teams.

So whats this post about then, please do tell ! Have I missed something here ?

Regards
Chris

[Tim Northcutt]

I agree Louis...I'm not Johnny herbert, so I don't know what exactly was going on, but on TV it looked to be uncalled for and cheap....

For Chris24

At Sonoma on the final corner and run for the finish line, Herbert clipped the Doran Lista Dallara to get past him going into the hairpin, then as they got to the finish line and the Doran car was moving to his left, herbert cut him off and nearly stopped, causing the Doran to hit him hard in the rear just past the finish line....

It damaged both cars but they kept rolling and running after the incident...

One Note: From Herbert's on-board camera, after the second contact, he waved his hand or shook his fist or hand (couldn't tell - it happened quickly) at the Doran car....

personally, the NASCAR-type contact to make the pass was kinda cheap...herbert could've been making a move to keep the Doran from passing him back, but literally stopping past the finish line so contact woudl occur was bush league...

now you know....hope that helps

[Aysedasi]

Aha. If that's so, I'm very disappointed. I've always been a fan of Herbert since his FF and F3 days (I was a member of Racing for Britain - remember that? ), but (and forgive me for saying this), F1 seems to change some people. Just because a driver has raced in (what is supposed to be) the highest echelon, a few airs and graces seem to come along with it (e.g. comments Liz made about Mika Salo when we met up at Le Mans). I heard team insiders say the same about another former Brit F1 driver who won at Le Mans in the early 90's.

Shame.

[Liz]

I expect after Mr. Biela's sterling performance at Le Mans 2003, we will have seen the last of Mr. Salo at La Sarthe.

Perhaps it is all that talk of F1 being "the pinnacle of motorsport" that makes them think any other kind of racing is a step down. Or perhaps this is a result of all the drivers being "specialists" nowadays who have never raced (or rarely raced) in anything but their chosen form of racing and they simply don't understand any other form of racing.

P.S. I was hoping this thread was going to be about ALMS cars appearing on milk cartons like the NA$CARs appear on cereal boxes.

[paul-collins]

Louis, do you have a source for your postulation about other teams?

Doran was barely committed to run the car part-time in the ALMS (and was pushing Leinhard to help him run a DP in Grand Am). The damage to the Dallara has probably convinced Fredy to not bother any more (or at the most, only at PLM); I didn't ask anyone at Mosport about it, as the guys I was talking to were either GT guys or Intersport guys who were excited about replacing their Lola B2K/10. It just never came up; now I wish I had've asked.

[Tim Northcutt]

It was a joke to do the Milk carton thing, but it got you to read the thread, didn't it????...

in the US they have the "Have You Seen This Child?" pictures of missing children that at one time (maybe they still are - I can't remember the last time I saw a cardboard mik carton in a store) were printed on milk cartons to help find them...

[Kurt Maxwell]

They still have them,Tim.

Go over to the nearest Marsh and you will see milk cartons with pictures of Cadillac,Chrysler,Nissan and Toyota prototypes as well as a stillborn LMP from Porsche.

[pirenzo]

Wait wait, before i can participate in this discussion, i want to know where the Milk Cartons come into this.

[noise boy 2]

see tim's and Kurt's responses above. Robert

[Tim Northcutt]

To Kurt Maxwell:

What about the Lister, Team Nasamax, the Matthews R&S, the Factory Courage, Audi UK, the Dome that competed in the ALMS last year, and the Piper that served as the benchmark chassis for the 2004 regs????

I guess you have to be "Missing" for more than a year before they post your picture on the Milk Cartons.....

Although I hear that the CBS-TV Series "Without a Trace" here in the U.S. has a blockbuster fall schedule of episodes that will deal with one prototype at a time and the high-drama search by FBI's team of agents to find them....

[Tim Northcutt]

To GT-Eins:

Yes...the fields at Donnington, Monza, and the anticipated field at Spa all show good numbers, and that is encouraging....

I noted that when I started the thread...and also noted Sebring and the anticipated participation at Petit in the ALMS....

On both sides of the Atalntic, terams are "Cherry Picking" events, with only a small core or cars and owners running every race...

That is not good for building the sport, not good for keeping fan interest and certainly not good for developing and refining prototypes...I still can't figure out what is going on with Lister...how could anyone spend the kind of $$$ they have to design and build a prototype and have only 10 laps at Sebring to show for it???

They spent the $$$...why not get your money's worth by racing it and learning from the races so you can develop the car???? They have wasted 3/4 of the year and have zero to show for it...

Let's see how it shakes out for next year....I hope that it improves...and I hope that in the coming months (many months, because this IS at transition time to the new regulations and specs) that we will see and hear of plans for new cars being designed and built...

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
What about the Lister, Team Nasamax, the Matthews R&S, the Factory Courage, Audi UK, the Dome that competed in the ALMS last year, and the Piper that served as the benchmark chassis for the 2004 regs????

Lister - Bugatti LMES round; recently seen testing. Don't forget, they're spending their resources primarily in the FIA-GT. I doubt we'll ever see them run the car over here other than the big two, but if AMT made the car easily convertible to 2004 specs (what I've heard), maybe they'll produce a customer chassis or two?

Nasamax - who knows? Their website has the full ALMS schedule listed...

Matthews R&S - will have Banana Joe's logo on it this weekend. By Laguna it should be Red and Blue.

Courage - Bugatti LMES. Never over here, and rarely in FIASCC, as Yves only cares about one race.

Audi UK - who knows? LMES I'm sure, but why not Spa 1000 km, since Goh is there?

Chamberlain Dome - who knows?

So at least one milk carton ad has paid off.

[Tim Northcutt]

To Paul Collins:

Did Intersport buy the Matthews R&S??? The ALMS entry list shows the chassis to still be the Lola LMP 900 chassis....

If YES, when???? This is the first I've seen of this news....

If Intersport did buy it, they made a smart move....but will it run with the Yates power or will they drop a Judd in it????

Just wondering....

Please give as much detail as you know on this subject...

[paul-collins]

Yes, it's bought. It happened just before the Mosport weekend; Clint was flying back to Ohio to drive over to Indy, pick it up, and drive it (and the trailer) up to Road America.

He was pretty excited - "now maybe we can beat the 37 car!"

[Tim Northcutt]

Thanks, Paul-Collins....

Since they are picking it up and hauling it directly to Road America, I'm assuming that they will race it with the Yates power for now...at least so that they can assess it....

Do you, or does anyone know if the Rileys will be involved with Intersport concerning set-ups, etc., in the same way that the Matthews team was the Riley & Scott "Factory Team" (in their own words).....

[paul-collins]

I'll let you know as it becomes known. Tim Crete (www.fastdetails.com) has a picture of it in their paddock at R.Am, by the way.