I hate to say I told you so (not!) - Williams on top - Page 2

Rick · 5 Aug 2003, 03:56 (Ref:680144)

Quote:

Originally posted by golem
[I'm hangin out for a lightsaber duel at Suzuka. ^_^ She's gonna be an interesting end to the season and with some luck Japan will be the decider. [/B]

Pity all us Aussies will have to watch Bathurst when it is happening! - time for a one-off Foxtel deal perhaps?

Mattracer · 5 Aug 2003, 05:32 (Ref:680169)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
Consider this also: Montoya's engine was limited from lap 15 onwards! The official line seems to be that it was accidental (Montoya seemed confused about a lack of top end speed when he spoke about it in the press conference) - but I'd be suspicious of the team giving him a helping hand to save his engine. Especially considering the heat, I find this quite plausible. All that pace, without the famous top-end of the BMW motor!

If this is true, it makes that win all the more impressive. Personally, I think you might have the wrong Williams for "engine saving" but anyway...

Glen · 5 Aug 2003, 08:35 (Ref:680267)

Neilap et al - you totally misunderstand! Doh. What I meant was that Williams are plainly miles better than the other Michelin teams. OF COURSE I know that the Michelin is the better tyre - but (as I said) other teams have access to the same tyre advantage.

Glen · 5 Aug 2003, 08:36 (Ref:680269)

Quote:

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya
I'm with neil. The biggest factor to the resurgence of Williams is tyres - by far. And its not too late for Bridgestone to get it together - at least enough for Ferrari to be competitive over the last few races and for Michael to squeeze out his 6th.

Talking about the resurgence of Williams relative to the other Michelin teams! Not even a resurgence actually, because they were second last year.

jetsetter · 5 Aug 2003, 10:57 (Ref:680367)

I definately think Ralf's penalty at Hungary has cost him a shot at the title & from now on he'll have to be content to ride shotgun for JPM.

**Bononi** · 5 Aug 2003, 12:49 (Ref:680458)

Quote:

Originally posted by jetsetter
I definately think Ralf's penalty at Hungary has cost him a shot at the title & from now on he'll have to be content to ride shotgun for JPM.

Ralf would love to do this...

neilap · 5 Aug 2003, 16:02 (Ref:680588)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
Neilap et al - you totally misunderstand! Doh. What I meant was that Williams are plainly miles better than the other Michelin teams. OF COURSE I know that the Michelin is the better tyre - but (as I said) other teams have access to the same tyre advantage.

Really, you think the Williams is miles ahead of the Mclaren? I don't. They may be quicker but not miles ahead.

Whats with the Doh? Maybe you are just too much of an intellectual for me so next time just simplify things for my overly simplistic little mind, thanks!! (Not to be taken too seriously, by the way)

Damn I hate disclaimers.

At the start of the season Williams seemed they might even get passed up by Renault. Now they seem invincible. That sounds like a resurgence to me. We are on the same side here though.

Quote:

In the same way Bridgestone was an advantage to Ferrari in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002...

I complained about that too. I suppose I should get past it but its such an injustice. Tires should not determine titles.

Whenever I read articles like this it only re-enforces what I feel...

4 August 2003 - [16:50]
BAR looking to Michelin?
Under the shade of the various motorhomes in the GP paddock over the past few weeks, British American Racing boss David Richards has been witnessed in heavy discussions with Michelin’s Pierre Dupasquier. Richards goal is simple: to convince Bibendum to equip his F1 contenders in 2004.

For David Richards, use of the French rubber would be the best means of acquiring a spectacular leap up the championship standings next season. They know that their BAR005 chassis is competitive, but it does not manage to defend its positions against other, and possibly less competitive teams, like Toyota or Jaguar.

Added to this is the fact that they are dissatisfied with the services of Bridgestone, who work to produce compounds especially suited to Ferrari. For example, the engineers of other Bridgestone shod teams must choose their compounds four weeks before each race, where Ferrari can wait up until just 7 days beforehand!

The performances of Michelin this season speak for themselves and to secure a contract with the manufacturer from Clermont-Ferrand would be the best way of gaining 0.5 seconds this winter. More to follow as it unfolds...

Glen · 5 Aug 2003, 16:29 (Ref:680616)

Neil - Sorry to ave resorted to "doh" and all that - but you reply without actually reading what I said! Yea - the advantage over Ferrari is clearly tyre related - just look at the gap between the next best Michelin team vs Williams (McLaren) and the gap to the next best Bridgestone team (BAR) vs Ferrari. My motivation in this thread was to ge a rise out of all the oh-so-wrong folks that carry on running Williams down and who think that it is all driver and engine related. Those factors cannot be discounted (because they are essential factors in the package) but it is abundantly clear that anyone who considers the Williams chassis inferior is just plain wrong, and that is a misconception that I am keen to correct.

As for Williams miles being ahead of McLaren - does a full minute mean anything to you? When did the McLaren last win? Many people just cannot shake their conviction that Williams are a clunky, unsophisticated team with a boxy looking car that only wins because of great drivers and a big engine - they (you) couldn't be more wrong.

It may well be true that BAR (for example) could do much better on Michelin - but if you think they could compete with Williams you're dreaming, because they'd have to get through Renault and McLaren first, and they haven't got the class to do that. Yet.

Dutton · 5 Aug 2003, 17:48 (Ref:680669)

Quote:

Originally posted by jetsetter
I definately think Ralf's penalty at Hungary has cost him a shot at the title & from now on he'll have to be content to ride shotgun for JPM.

Not team orders? Surely not.... They are unspeakably evil, remember........

**Adam43** · 5 Aug 2003, 17:51 (Ref:680670)

Quote:

Originally posted by Dutton
Not team orders? Surely not.... They are unspeakably evil, remember........

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=41815

neilap · 5 Aug 2003, 18:02 (Ref:680683)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
Neil - Sorry to ave resorted to "doh" and all that - but you reply without actually reading what I said! Yea - the advantage over Ferrari is clearly tyre related - just look at the gap between the next best Michelin team vs Williams (McLaren) and the gap to the next best Bridgestone team (BAR) vs Ferrari. My motivation in this thread was to ge a rise out of all the oh-so-wrong folks that carry on running Williams down and who think that it is all driver and engine related. Those factors cannot be discounted (because they are essential factors in the package) but it is abundantly clear that anyone who considers the Williams chassis inferior is just plain wrong, and that is a misconception that I am keen to correct.

As for Williams miles being ahead of McLaren - does a full minute mean anything to you? When did the McLaren last win? Many people just cannot shake their conviction that Williams are a clunky, unsophisticated team with a boxy looking car that only wins because of great drivers and a big engine - they (you) couldn't be more wrong.

It may well be true that BAR (for example) could do much better on Michelin - but if you think they could compete with Williams you're dreaming, because they'd have to get through Renault and McLaren first, and they haven't got the class to do that. Yet.

DC fought his way from 10th. His fastest lap was not that far off JPMs either.

I agree with most of what you say. Williams has the better car now. At the start Mclaren did.

**Adam43** · 5 Aug 2003, 22:41 (Ref:680852)

Quote:

Originally posted by neilap
DC fought his way from 10th. His fastest lap was not that far off JPMs either.

1.1s IIRC. Although he did switch to a two stop, so he was heavier when on new tyres and had old tyres when light.

Jukebox · 6 Aug 2003, 02:57 (Ref:680930)

Yeah....you have all the right reasons to gloat over what Williams have achieved in the last race. It'll be the last though

I too agree it's because of the tyres and the Macs have the best chassis together with Ferrari and the only reason for the good performance that Williams had was because of the BMW engine.

Glen · 6 Aug 2003, 11:00 (Ref:681143)

How did BMW super power help them win Monaco then Jukebox? The evidence is right there in front of you - Williams is winning, even a circuits that favour good chassis performance above all else (monaco), or those that demand excelllent aero (Magny Cours). Your conviction that McLaren is the best chassis is not based on any reason or logic - I suspect that you simply think the Williams to be a boxy looking kinda car and that it therefore must be inferior. You are demonstrably wrong, I believe.

As for the lst win - now by a long shot matey - Ferrari will come back, but not until Suzuka. - and McLaren won't win again this year, not with the 17D anyway.

Jukebox · 7 Aug 2003, 03:31 (Ref:681726)

Oh brother

listen...i'm not gonna bother argue with a guy who tries to impress through what he reads from magazines and websites. Unless you really are involve in the trade then it's worthwhile.

Valve Bounce · 7 Aug 2003, 03:42 (Ref:681729)

So!! As I had suspected all along, Jukes is involved in the F1 racing scene.
Anyway, I don't understand why you guys are carrying on about the Bridgestone tyres. I mean Minardi uses Bridgestones and they seem to be pretty happy with them.

**GTRMagic** · 7 Aug 2003, 06:00 (Ref:681757)

And 2002 spec to boot Valve Bounce

Jukebox · 7 Aug 2003, 08:32 (Ref:681818)

Now...from where do you get that idea from Valve

Valve Bounce · 7 Aug 2003, 08:49 (Ref:681827)

I thought you were "involved in the trade"

Glen · 7 Aug 2003, 09:04 (Ref:681837)

I'm not trying to impress anyone Jukebox - only chat about things as I see them. If you can't be bothered to reciprocate then why bother replying at all? It is plain to anyone, whether in the business or not (yea - like you are!), that you need a good chassis for Monaco and power makes much less difference - are you saying that isn't true?

Glen · 7 Aug 2003, 09:23 (Ref:681849)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
I too agree it's because of the tyres and the Macs have the best chassis together with Ferrari and the only reason for the good performance that Williams had was because of the BMW engine.

If McLaren have a better chassis and the same tyres as Williams shouldn't they be winning? Also - are you saying that the BMW power has increased throughout the season - because to start with the McLaren seemed a pretty quick car but then the Williams got better... you seem to believe that the only thing Wiliams have going for them is BMW, so presumably they have improved the engine. Please let us have the benefit of your insider's view.

Mr V · 7 Aug 2003, 17:12 (Ref:682120)

Williams wouldn't be winning (dominating)if it didn't have.....

a. Good Tyres
b. Good Chassis
c. Good Engine
b. Good Driver(s)

(Makes me laugh when Michaels winnin with the above ingrediants that it's purely down to his skill only

)

neilap · 7 Aug 2003, 17:59 (Ref:682152)

When Williams upgraded the rear suspension of their car it was like a totally new car. I think it was just before monaco, when they tested at Silverstone. After that I would say the chassis leapt over Mac.

Jukebox · 8 Aug 2003, 08:19 (Ref:682603)

Okay, here goes....it's no secret that i'm not such a big fan of Williams and the results that they have been producing lately bothered me a lot. I hate to say it but they have improved tremendously for the past few months copying other teams aero package. Okay....they added a few of their own too, like significantly the added fin running along the back of the airbox to where the rear suspension is at to improve the air flow.

The improvements they have copied -

Wavy front wings : McLaren's idea during pre season testing
Cut out on both sides rear wing's endplate : BAR introduced back in their 2001 Suzuka race

Glen · 8 Aug 2003, 09:20 (Ref:682645)

Like Neilap says a load of work on the chassis (rear suspension, wider front tyres, extra experience finding set-ups) has transformed them. They have also done a lot of aero work - the front wing being a good example... they have also drastically re-worked the rear of the car, the ends of the sidepods and the flip-ups.

The mechanical grip seems the class of the field- it will be interesting to see them go in Hungary, which is obviously very twisty.

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