How to fix F1?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I mentioned 2002, and you want to cherry-pick 2008?

However good it seems to you, it's still distinctly inferior to champcar up to 2002.

I'm talking about a series that is almost as big a deal as F1, of which champcar was getting there, but imo, probably another decade away from.


How's that any different to the last 40 years?


Except a lack of consciousness to give it consideration. The balance is way more F1-centric these days.

Then there's the structure the FIA has put in place to get into F1 (As Greem has pointed out), and his manager (As big a F1 snob there is in motor racing).

I didn't cherry pick 2008 at all. You seem to be quite unaware that 2008 was pivotal, in than both the IRL and ChampCar series merged; reunification as it is called. I mentioned 2008 in response to your comment that IndyCar had regressed because in 2008, despite reunification, the now merged IndyCar series was in a dreadful state. In your post #2317, you don't actually mention 2002.

I agree CART had the potential to challenge F1 but by 2002 it had shot its bolt and was on a steady decline and by the time CART became ChampCar in 2003, most of the major teams and sponsors had gone.

How's that any different to the last 40 years? 40 years ago IndyCar wasn't in the dreadful state it was in, in 2008. The other big difference is seat availability. In 1982 F1 wasn't limited to just 10 F1 teams, there were many more teams. 40 years on, that is clearly not the case, so the alternative, if F1 drivers want to race in a top open wheel series and can't get a seat in F1, is to race in IndyCar, which is what is happening.


As it is, this is completely off topic so I am leaving it here.

[S griffin]

Yes Indycars really has recovered well. But we are getting off topic as you say. We can debate about the old Champ Cars elsewhere

It would be nice if there a few more teams involved in F1, opportunities are getting fewer for some drivers. I don’t why there should be only 10 teams, there’s room for a few more.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don’t why there should be only 10 teams, there’s room for a few more.

Of course. For whatever reason WCC prize money was only paid to 10th place, so that has had the result it has had -- i.e., bankruptcy of Manor Racing, HRT F1 and Caterham F1 team.

It would be good to see Mercedes-Benz step up and create a B-team, not the least of which so de Vries and Vandoorne would have F1 cars to race, but Mercedes don't seem interested. The same goes for Alpine, and Piastri and other Alpine juniors.

When Porsche and Audi join F1,it would be good to see them enter works team and increase the car count to 24 -- given they both have the infrastructure to do so (trucks, factories, machine shops, race crews etc) from LMP racing, but this seems an unlikely scenario unfortunately.

It would also be great to re-welcome Toyota Gazoo Racing Gmbh or indeed welcome Peugeot Sport (as a constructor) to F1!

Where is BMW for that matter?! I see too Hyundai N division becoming prominent in WRC, so why not add F1 to their program?

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I agree CART had the potential to challenge F1 but by 2002 it had shot its bolt and was on a steady decline and by the time CART became ChampCar in 2003, most of the major teams and sponsors had gone.

IIRC, a lot of the big dollars had gone to NASCAR by then (Toyota for instance), with the Winston/Sprint Cup exceeding the popularity of either CART/Champcar or the Indy Racing League?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

IIRC, a lot of the big dollars had gone to NASCAR by then (Toyota for instance), with the Winston/Sprint Cup exceeding the popularity of either CART/Champcar or the Indy Racing League?

That's right, a lot of the big dollars and sponsors went to NASCAR rather than the IRL. As a result, the IRL was always underfunded and struggling, just like Champ Car. Toyota left CART at the end of 2002, going to the IRL in 2003. At the end of 2005 both former CART teams, Team Penske and Target Chip Ganassi Racing, announced the switch to Honda and by the end of 2006, Toyota left the IRL.

[S griffin]

We don’t need manufacturers back in F1 for more teams or rather we shouldn’t. It would be great if they did, but the problem is, they would leave when it suited them, as they always have. We need to make it cheaper, so new teams could enter. I think the main problem is, the hybrids are too complicated to run and they aren’t cheap to run either. If only they could run a DFV like the old days

[chillibowl]

in fairness though the current manus have been quite loyal to the sport, the sport has become significantly cheaper, and engines are becoming simpler and cheaper. combined with a better distribution of the prize fund and a more popular sport (in theory making the sport more attractive to sponsors) maybe we should be looking at other factors which may be acting as barriers to entry?

because a new team will dilute the prize fund, liberty and the existing teams have put in a 200m (i believe) buy in for any new entrant...thats got to be prohibitive.

the bespoke nature of the sport means starting from scratch is a non starter for anyone other then a manu really. typically a team would have to buy an old car/team's old IP to get a jump start and that again would be difficult because there are not too many unspoken for contemporary designs available. Toyota with unlimited money allegedly still had to copy a Ferrari in order to build up their own designs.

so is the bespoke nature of f1 and the development time for a new team too great a barrier for a new team? many lost their minds over the pink Mercedes so im not sure how they ?would handle more spec parts on offer to new teams?

moving away from the image of 'cutting edge' technology to more affordable older technologies in and of itself would be contrary to F1 being the 'pinnacle' but maybe they should focus on the racing more and less on the image, particularly if it can create a larger more dynmaic field?

and im not sure its just the big teams acting as the barrier...what incentive does a small team have at allowing in a new competitor? even the small teams have a level of infrastructure, investment, value that needs to be protected and its already hard enough to advance up the ladder without more teams being added.

personally, i am of mixed feelings on this topic.

on one (selfish) hand, 10 teams and 20 drivers is a small enough amount to allow for being able to follow the entire sport without spending a lot of time. by comparison, the NBA (the other sport i follow closely) there are 30 teams each with 20 odd players so following the entire sport would be a full time job and not a pass time. for me i can only follow one team closely which can be great but limiting at the same time.

granted 1 or 2 new teams wont add much in terms of more news to follow for F1, but i like that F1 is (or was until they started adding more races imo) more digestible compared to other global sports leagues. expansion also comes with drawbacks.

on the other (less selfish) hand, due to the budget cap most teams were forced to release a lot of staff. if there were new teams to absorb those cast off i think we would be in abetter position to see the effects of diffusions of ideas and technology. combined with more competition for jobs, i think there is an opportunity with more teams to actually create a healthier more free flowing space for ideas and growth.

from that perspective more competition could be good overall!

anyways, i can go back and forth on this one all day but until we see what someone try to start a new team under the new owners and rule set its hard to say what or where the real issues reside.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

We need to make it cheaper, so new teams could enter. I think the main problem is, the hybrids are too complicated to run and they aren’t cheap to run either. If only they could run a DFV like the old days

Yes, this is not new ground, it was proposed in 2015. I was very much in favour of an FIA engine which would be affordable and have a guaranteed "balance of performance" with the best of the works engines. Obviously the FIA engine would need to be on a different set of regulations to achieve this. Such an FIA engine would certainly have saved Red Bull Racing a lot of bother.

The FIA will announce a tender for an independent and cost-effective Formula 1 engine for 2017 early next week, according to Bernie Ecclestone.

With regards the claim that the move is a bid to force other manufacturers to reduce the current supply cost, Ecclestone said: "Not really, its very simple. If we don't, we'll probably lose a few teams.

"It's nothing to do with us what people charge. We have no control, and don't want it.

"They can charge what they like. What is being introduced will be an awful lot cheaper than what it currently costs."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fi...98496/4998496/

For whatever reason Mercedes were not best pleased when the FIA (or rather Eccelstone's Formula One Management?) proposed this idea, and it never amounted to anything.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in fairness though the current manus have been quite loyal to the sport, the sport has become significantly cheaper, and engines are becoming simpler and cheaper.

Yet Mercedes GP still vetoed a supply of customer Mercedes HPP power units for Red Bull Racing (who were happy to pay on time and in full for them) and instead supplied Manor Racing instead who went bankrupt. So much for equitable access to competitive power units!

Having an FIA engine with a guaranteed BOP to match the best of whatever Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault could bring would do a huge service to benefit all the independent F1 teams.

Instead we saw for instance, HAAS and Alfa Romeo being instantly rendered backmarkers in 2020 just because the newly compliant Ferrari power unit happened to now be 60hp/PS down on the best power units -- as opposed to ~20 PS up as it was the season before, via perhaps not entirely legitimate means!

An FIA engine of say 2.2L that could continually have it's fuel flow and boost adjusted to match the best 1.6L works unit out there would avoid such dilemmas. It all goes back to the engine manufacturers having undue influence and control.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Yes, this is not new ground, it was proposed in 2015. I was very much in favour of an FIA engine which would be affordable and have a guaranteed "balance of performance" with the best of the works engines. Obviously the FIA engine would need to be on a different set of regulations to achieve this. Such an FIA engine would certainly have saved Red Bull Racing a lot of bother.

Having an affordable engine and having an FIA provided engine are two separate things. They could be the same, but you don't have to have one to have the other. Engine prices are already fixed and I would be surprised if they are sold at a loss. They could be made cheaper per the regulations. If the suppliers balk at lower prices, tighten the spec and/or define a more technically simple spec that would be cheaper to design, develop and support. Include more homologated components. Even the 2026 engines will be relatively complex. Maybe not as complex as now, but still pretty complex.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Yet Mercedes GP still vetoed a supply of customer Mercedes HPP power units for Red Bull Racing (who were happy to pay on time and in full for them) and instead supplied Manor Racing instead who went bankrupt. So much for equitable access to competitive power units!

Having an FIA engine with a guaranteed BOP to match the best of whatever Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault could bring would do a huge service to benefit all the independent F1 teams.

Instead we saw for instance, HAAS and Alfa Romeo being instantly rendered backmarkers in 2020 just because the newly compliant Ferrari power unit happened to now be 60hp/PS down on the best power units -- as opposed to ~20 PS up as it was the season before, via perhaps not entirely legitimate means!

An FIA engine of say 2.2L that could continually have it's fuel flow and boost adjusted to match the best 1.6L works unit out there would avoid such dilemmas. It all goes back to the engine manufacturers having undue influence and control.

An FIA engine that would be competitive with manufacture provided engines. would drive manufactures off. They would have little reason to participate. It would be a nuclear option by the FIA/F1 against teams like Ferrari. Now that might not be a bad outcome, but I don't think it would play out as you suggest.

Richard

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I was talking about a series that is close to being as big as F1. Effectively an American centric world championship but without the official status of the world championship.

The current Indycar series might not be lame like the IRL and fly the flag for American open-wheel racing, but it's nowhere near F1 or what CART was.

Comparing it to football/soccer. The Premier League is the most popular competition, and maybe the best. But as a player, it's not a step down to move from there to go to Spain, Italy, Germany. It's not like that with motor racing.

[gert]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

The Premier League is the most popular competition, and maybe the best. But as a player, it's not a step down to move from there to go to Spain, Italy, Germany. It's not like that with motor racing.

But but but ... we are #1 of the world! (*)
Aren't we the best then?


(*) Argument used for tar too long by a coach who should have been sacked or should have left on his own after getting 0 results with what has been called "our golden generation"



Sorry for the massive off-topic. I needed to get that off my chest, someday, somewhere.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Having an FIA engine with a guaranteed BOP to match the best of whatever Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault could bring would do a huge service to benefit all the independent F1 teams.

sure but how many small teams would take that engine?

maybe this is cynical, but in todays climate the small teams want a lot more from their supplier then just engines. if you are an investment firm, looking for B2B, a small niche auto manu, a rich guy buying a ride for their kid, you
take a supply from a works team. and with that purchase agreement comes a tacit agreement to be subservient to your supplier otherwise what incentive does that supplier have to continue with the supply?

i suppose supplying PUs is a good stream of income for Ferrari and Merc but do they really need the money? is money their priority?

Ferrari will never ever let Haas beat them to a title. i suspect Merc will make it hard for McLaren get close. Renault is a weird one...had Flavio not imploded that team i dont think they let RB take titles with Renault power either right?

anyways, yes i agree that the manus hold too much power.

but in the context of expanding the grid, and removing that power the current manus have, does it make more sense to encourage more major manus to enter (big vs big) rather then make it affordable for smaller teams to enter (the current bigs vs more smalls)?

[Mike Harte]

The thought of having an independent engine supplier is, I regret to say, really just pie in the sky. I cannot recall one independent that has, without outside assistance and/or investment, produced a winning engine in F1 since, probably, the 1960s or maybe earlier.

One might point at the Cosworth DVF, but that wouldn't have become the world beater without the absolutely massive investment from Formoco, whilst Matra had investment from the much smaller manufacturer Simca. Who else has produced a winning engine since those days? I can only think of Renault, Toyota, Mercedes and Ferrari and Honda (and that includes Mugen, which is run by a member of the Honda family). Oh, and Meccachrome that was, in reality, just rebadged Renaults. Judds were OK, but I don't remember them winning any races.

Have I missed any?

[gert]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Have I missed any?

Porsche and BMW ?
Alfa Romeo?

Does Toyota even belong on the 'winning' engines list?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by gert

Porsche and BMW ?

Does Toyota even belong on the 'winning' engines list?

D'oh, of course; I blame old age as my excuse. I don't think that an Alfa engine, not a rebadged Ferrari, has done anything since the 60s.

And didn't Ralf Schumacher win at least one race, or at least do pretty well in at least one race!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by gert

Does Toyota even belong on the 'winning' engines list?

man did they suck!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And didn't Ralf Schumacher win at least one race, or at least do pretty well in at least one race!

him and Trulli did a really good job holding everyone up in Japan 2005!

[NaBUru38]

I can't find if any thread has mentioned Zak Brown's comments about F1.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...wance/7360683/

Originally Posted by Zak Brown

The current governance structure of the sport enables a situation where some teams, to protect their own competitive advantage, are effectively holding the sport hostage from what's best for the fans and therefore the sport at large.

The regulations, as they stand today, are heavily biased towards B teams/customer teams which is not in line with F1's principle of a group of genuine constructors competing with one another on even terms.

There are times when some smaller teams vote against their own interests to satisfy the agenda of their A team.

Those are strong words against the major teams.

[chillibowl]

but surely that is an indictment of the smaller teams no?

they are not necessarily there to advance up the grid...which begs the question, why do we need more of them?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

man did they suck!

As a constructor, Toyota finished third 8 times. The first time in 2006 and the last in 2009.

As an engine supplier, they finished third 3 times. The first time in 2005 with Jordan and the last in 2009 with Williams.

[S griffin]

I feel Toyota pulled out too early, they had shown they could produce a winning car in 09, but missed out on the winning. It took them a while, but they had it in them, they just didn't always make the most of their opportunities

I wouldn't mind seeing them back as an engine supplier, it would probably have been better than them doing it all themselves and they probably also struggled supplying others at the same time. Chances missed, but there you go

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I feel Toyota pulled out too early, they had shown they could produce a winning car in 09, but missed out on the winning. It took them a while, but they had it in them, they just didn't always make the most of their opportunities

I wouldn't mind seeing them back as an engine supplier, it would probably have been better than them doing it all themselves and they probably also struggled supplying others at the same time. Chances missed, but there you go

Isn't it more satisfying to race at Le Mans and win? Even a B- Formula One team, is an A to A+ Le Mans prototype team. Such are the different levels of the competitions.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I feel Toyota pulled out too early, they had shown they could produce a winning car in 09, but missed out on the winning. It took them a while, but they had it in them, they just didn't always make the most of their opportunities

I wouldn't mind seeing them back as an engine supplier, it would probably have been better than them doing it all themselves and they probably also struggled supplying others at the same time. Chances missed, but there you go

I don't know how everybody else here feels, but I think that Toyota's driver selection was not what it should have been to either develop the car or achieve the race results they were looking for.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by wnut

I don't know how everybody else here feels, but I think that Toyota's driver selection was not what it should have been to either develop the car or achieve the race results they were looking for.

Even when Raikkonen was offered a Toyota contract he refused to go there IIRC, so it's not like Toyota was attractive enough for drivers like Alonso or Hamilton anyway.

FWIW, Toyota consultant and F1 design legend Frank Dernie wanted Toyota to pursue an outwash front wing for 2009 based on his experience but it didn't get added to the wind tunnel program until late in the process, and therefore didn't even up being anywhere near as sophisticated or highly-developed as the Brawn's outwash front wing.

So even though the 2009 Toyota had both the "must have" outwash front and double deck diffuser, they were not developed as far as the Brawn was. Still the 2009 Toyota was an OK car with some poles and podiums IIRC.

The other decent car Toyota built was the 2005 car under Gascoyne, but it seems like Gascoyne clashed with the "Toyota way" and then left Toyota Motorsport GmbH. Where teams like Red Bull or Mercedes GP are all about getting go-fast parts on the car as quickly as possible no matter what (i.e., a singular objective of doing whatever it takes to make the car faster, that 'garagiste' spirit of Cooper, Brabham, McLaren, Lotus and Williams but scaled up), Toyota followed protocol and process more akin to production car manufacturing apparently.

It is rather ironic that the only Formula One team based in Germany was Toyota and not BMW or Mercedes!

[S griffin]

Toyota’s other problem was they were too conservative with race strategy

During the rain shortened Malaysian GP in 2009, Jarno Trulli asked for inters as the rain started to fall, but as he was second, they decided to play it safe and put him on wets. Meanwhile his team mate Glock, who was in the pack, went on inters. The result was Glock got as high as 2nd, which became 3rd on countback, while Trulli dropped to fourth, as his wet tyres wore out too quickly, almost half a minute behind the winner and was left wondering what could have been

In fact one of the few times Toyota rolled the dice, it almost decided the 2008 title!

[crmalcolm]

Inspired by comments in the P45 thread - I think the title of this thread has been answered.

How to 'fix' F1? - Get Vince McMahon in charge!