[Rumours] Porsche & Volkswagen Group considering entering F1

[S griffin]

Yes the Porsche engine in the Footwork Arrows really was disastrous, like they didn't seem bothered

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

If this doesn't get Porsche into F1, I think nothing else will

Will we have Porsche / RB PU's supplying other teams? While Porsche are partners with RB presumably developing RB's next PU I can't see them as a team entrant at all. Audi, yes, Porsche no.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

Will we have Porsche / RB PU's supplying other teams? While Porsche are partners with RB presumably developing RB's next PU I can't see them as a team entrant at all. Audi, yes, Porsche no.

I think I am agreeing with you below...

I don't know who ("Porsche" or "Red Bull Powertrains (RBPT)"... probably RBPT) will be the official "Power Unit" provider, but regardless, that entity will have to follow the regulations which includes the potential to being asked to provide to other teams.

Now the more suppliers that are in the mix (Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, RBPT), the more they can be able to be picky about who they supply. If the pool of providers shrank drastically, then they can be effectively told to provide other teams. But I expect there will be a second team just to get more operational data (mileage beyond the testing/development restrictions) and that is likely to be AlphaTauri.

As to a 100% "Porsche" team. I don't see it happening right now. There is the rumor of 50/50 buy into RBR and maybe also RBPT (or something like that). This allows Porsche to be deep, but not fully into F1. I expect a strong co-branding on the car and the engine being labelled "Porsche". Both Red Bull and Porsche can get marketing exposure from just the one team. "Porsche" power in other teams is just gravy.

Lastly, I expect Porsche to bring their own technology and knowledge into RBPT.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

As to a 100% "Porsche" team. I don't see it happening right now. There is the rumor of 50/50 buy into RBR and maybe also RBPT (or something like that). This allows Porsche to be deep, but not fully into F1.

Richard

Richard, it's more than a rumour. Due to EU finance regulations, Porsche had to announce that it was their intention to purchase 50% of RBR, and it was expected that they would also take a similar stake in RBPT.

Now, there is nothing to stop them from withdrawing from their stated intentions, obviously subject to any contract, etc., but as they have made the announcement public, I think it unlikely.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard, it's more than a rumour. Due to EU finance regulations, Porsche had to announce that it was their intention to purchase 50% of RBR, and it was expected that they would also take a similar stake in RBPT.

Now, there is nothing to stop them from withdrawing from their stated intentions, obviously subject to any contract, etc., but as they have made the announcement public, I think it unlikely.

So yes. I was being nice/conservative given how we know the intent is due to EU regulations (public documents). But it's not fully confirmed by either Porsche or Red Bull (even if I fully expect it to happen).

Richard

[Casper]

Horner has said recently that the deal with Porsche was very much a work in progress and definitely not a done deal. it is only because of a mistake by someone in Morocco that it became public knowledge or so we are told.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

Horner has said recently that the deal with Porsche was very much a work in progress and definitely not a done deal. it is only because of a mistake by someone in Morocco that it became public knowledge or so we are told.

So you're saying Honda might be back instead?

[billy bleach]

What i cannot grasp is if Porsche are going to do it why is RedBull power train being set up and serious people being hired? Porsche will surely do everything in house and not sure contract their name to a UK engineering company? For me it makes no sense

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

What i cannot grasp is if Porsche are going to do it why is RedBull power train being set up and serious people being hired? Porsche will surely do everything in house and not sure contract their name to a UK engineering company? For me it makes no sense

Porsche will do it for the same reason/s that Mercedes set up their F1 engine facility in the UK, also using a set up that already existed.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

So you're saying Honda might be back instead?

I wouldn't have a clue because the fuse in my crystal ball blew when I asked it the question.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Porsche will do it for the same reason/s that Mercedes set up their F1 engine facility in the UK, also using a set up that already existed.

Fair point but Mercedes had no Motorsport knowledge prior to their return with Ilmor - that became Merc F1. Porsche have enormous current Motorsport knowledge and current thinking - arguably more than Redbull Power training....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Fair point but Mercedes had no Motorsport knowledge prior to their return with Ilmor - that became Merc F1. Porsche have enormous current Motorsport knowledge and current thinking - arguably more than Redbull Power training....

I'm assuming you are looking at the post-1955 situation through to 1994 from an F1 perspective only?

If so - you are missing:

The Sauber C8, C9 and subsequent Mercedes-Benz C11 onwards in the World Sportscar Championship.
DTM from 1988 onwards starting with the W201.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Fair point but Mercedes had no Motorsport knowledge prior to their return with Ilmor - that became Merc F1. Porsche have enormous current Motorsport knowledge and current thinking - arguably more than Redbull Power training....

There isn't much Porsche can use from their previous programs for the VERY specific F1 regs and design. RBT can hire the staffing now and be ready for F1 knowledge for Porsche to use

[Casper]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

There isn't much Porsche can use from their previous programs for the VERY specific F1 regs and design. RBT can hire the staffing now and be ready for F1 knowledge for Porsche to use

What Porsche did will be obsolete technology within six months if it is not already. As I said in the PU thread what is designed today will be in a museum by 2026 so how long do they wait before beginning work on the electrical side? This is a problem F1 has never had to worry about.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

What i cannot grasp is if Porsche are going to do it why is RedBull power train being set up and serious people being hired? Porsche will surely do everything in house and not sure contract their name to a UK engineering company? For me it makes no sense

Your premise is wrong there. Porsche are looking to buy 50% of Red Bull Technologies, so both the chassis constructor and Red Bull Powertrains, and RBPT will build the Porsche power units, perhaps with technical assistance from Porsche on the hybrid side and for specialised manufacturing processes.

The key for Red Bull is that if Porsche leaves they can buy that 50% back and still retain that in-house power unit capability. They don't want to be in a bind relying on suppliers like Renault (who can't deliver a competitive unit) or Honda (who may decide to leave the sport) ever again.

Maybe Porsche can do just as well from Stuttgart with their own staff, but that won't be the deal that Red Bull will be offering. 300 powertrain staff, a lot of them ex-Mercedes HPP, at Milton Keynes has to be tempting, surely?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Your premise is wrong there. Porsche are looking to buy 50% of Red Bull Technologies, so both the chassis constructor and Red Bull Powertrains, and RBPT will build the Porsche power units, perhaps with technical assistance from Porsche on the hybrid side and for specialised manufacturing processes.

The key for Red Bull is that if Porsche leaves they can buy that 50% back and still retain that in-house power unit capability. They don't want to be in a bind relying on suppliers like Renault (who can't deliver a competitive unit) or Honda (who may decide to leave the sport) ever again.

Maybe Porsche can do just as well from Stuttgart with their own staff, but that won't be the deal that Red Bull will be offering. 300 powertrain staff, a lot of them ex-Mercedes HPP, at Milton Keynes has to be tempting, surely?

Exactly that, Porsche didn't get where they are by reinventing their own wheel every time. Ok, they did for the 911 but for everything since then

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Ok, they did for the 911 but for everything since then

Isn't a 911 just a 356 with two extra cylinders, the 356 itself a souped-up version of the Beetle? Obviously the 911 didn't receive a full cleansheet redesign until 1996's 996 as Porsche thought the 928 would be their future in the 80's.

It's good thing that Porsche canned the original styling proposal and went back to more of a sleek 356 C-pillar:

Some might say the original 356 replacement was aesthetically challenged...

[coppice]

I am thinking ASA Coupe - not a subject I am often preoccupied with . I like it , actually, if not as much as the 911 (or 901 for hyper pedants ) . I think the 911 still looks near perfect , and has stood the test of time so much better than the absurd E -Type . A car which is less than the sum of its parts - lovely hips, sexy lights , laughably phallic bonnet and all ruined by a narrow track and upright - erect ?- windscreen .

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm assuming you are looking at the post-1955 situation through to 1994 from an F1 perspective only?

If so - you are missing:

The Sauber C8, C9 and subsequent Mercedes-Benz C11 onwards in the World Sportscar Championship.
DTM from 1988 onwards starting with the W201.

The Group C motors were outsourced as was the DTM motors. That is my point - Merc effectively outsourced where as Porsche have always done their motors in house

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

The Group C motors were outsourced as was the DTM motors. That is my point - Merc effectively outsourced where as Porsche have always done their motors in house

I notice you now change to motors, when your previous statement was 'Mercedes had no Motorsport knowledge prior to their return with Ilmor [...] Porsche have enormous current Motorsport knowledge'.

But, always happy to increase my knowledge on a topic. Who did Mercedes outsource the M117 and M119 engines to?

I know that Heini Mader was involved with the preparation of the M117 in the early stages of the C8 - but this was a cover for Mercedes back door involvement. The later M119 engines came direct from the Mercedes engine facility at Untertürkheim, supervised by Hermann Hiereth.

More detail on this can be found in the SAE Techincal Paper 920674 'The Mercedes-Benz Group C Engines for the World Sports Prototype Racing Championships 1989 and 1990'. If you don't have access to the paper, a synopsis is as follows:

"The M119 HL, a twin turbocharged V8-5 I-engine, was developed by Mercedes-Benz AG for Group C World Championship Race events based on the production engine used for the Mercedes-Benz passenger car range." The paper was authored by Hermann Hiereth, W.D. Baehrens, Willi Müller and Gert Withalm - affiliated to Mercedes-Benz AG

How does this compare to the Porsche 963 LMDh sports prototype, which has powertrain parts parts provided by Williams Advanced Engineering, Bosch, and Xtrac?

Honestly - I would like to know how Mercedes' involvement with the C8, C9 and C11 can be considered 'outsourced'?

I also wouldn't consider the early DTM engines as being entirely outsourced. Yes, Cosworth developed the engine for the 190E, but it was a M102.983 engine built by Mercedes to Cosworth's design. The only part not built at Untertürkheim was the Cylinder Head. Then in 1994, the C-Class engine was entirely in-house.

All of this occured prior to their work with Ilmor - so I still think it is wrong to say that Mercedes had no knowledge of Motorsport.

[Mike Harte]

Need to add that Mercedes have some brilliant engineers and ICE designers that work for them in-house in Germany. This is why the Mercedes' PUs were the class of the field when the current units finally emerged, and was due in no small part to the fact that the same people had been already working on similar technology for the car and truck divisions, and were then transferred to Brixham to work on the F1 engines.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Your premise is wrong there. Porsche are looking to buy 50% of Red Bull Technologies, so both the chassis constructor and Red Bull Powertrains, and RBPT will build the Porsche power units, perhaps with technical assistance from Porsche on the hybrid side and for specialised manufacturing processes.

Fully agree. While it has been awhile since the 919 in the WEC, they do have experience in building top level hybrid motorsports solution. Maybe a bit outdated, but otherwise RBPT would probably be even further behind on that side even if they have staffed up.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The key for Red Bull is that if Porsche leaves they can buy that 50% back and still retain that in-house power unit capability. They don't want to be in a bind relying on suppliers like Renault (who can't deliver a competitive unit) or Honda (who may decide to leave the sport) ever again.

Again, I fully agree. I think Red Bull has decided they will no longer be 100% at the mercy of external power unit suppliers. The 50/50 deal provides an explicity partnership, but I can imagine that if Porsche wanted to sell that 50% Red Bull has first right of refusal.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Maybe Porsche can do just as well from Stuttgart with their own staff, but that won't be the deal that Red Bull will be offering. 300 powertrain staff, a lot of them ex-Mercedes HPP, at Milton Keynes has to be tempting, surely?

Again, fully agree. Its clear that RBPT has been staffing up. I think I even read recently that they have their first test mule ICE for 2026 already up and running.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Exactly that, Porsche didn't get where they are by reinventing their own wheel every time. Ok, they did for the 911 but for everything since then

Agree. I think Porsche is quite a bit smarter than they where decades ago on how to do this.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Isn't a 911 just a 356 with two extra cylinders, the 356 itself a souped-up version of the Beetle? Obviously the 911 didn't receive a full cleansheet redesign until 1996's 996 as Porsche thought the 928 would be their future in the 80's.

We are down the rabbit hole here (and a bit off topic), but it is interesting how much of an evolution it was from VW, to 356, to 911. I am pretty sure the engine/transmission bolt pattern and dimensions from VW type 1 up through all of the air cooled 911s is the same. Don't fix it if it isn't broken.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Audi to join from 2026

'Markus Duesmann, chairman of the Audi board, said on Friday that the German car company had officially registered as a power-unit manufacturer in F1.

Audi has not yet revealed whether it will run its own team, as is expected, or simply supply engines.

Duesmann said the decision had been made because of new rules that feature an increased electrical component in engines and fully sustainable fuels.'

[S griffin]

Well it's about time. I'm now ready to believe it will happen with their confirmation.

Now we wait for them to announce their link up with Sauber.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well it's about time. I'm now ready to believe it will happen with their confirmation.

Now we wait for them to announce their link up with Sauber.

Yes - and that will probably come later in the year.

Audi’s power unit will be constructed out of Neuburg in Germany, with Adam Barker leading the project.

An official announcement regarding Audi’s partner team is expected before the end of 2022, but the German manufacturer is reportedly in the process of buying a majority stake in Sauber.

Porsche are also set to enter F1 from 2026 in partnership with Red Bull, but the announcement has been pushed back.

Confirmation of Red Bull and Porsche’s plans have been anticipated for weeks, but there has still been no official news despite F1’s 2026 engine rules being given the green light.