Jamie Whincup = GOAT

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The ex-Fiancee Returns Serve

The trophy will keep him warm.”

ouch

[HDTVKSS]

Theres a surprise, ex partners disagree with each other over split...

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by one five five

Numbers mean nothing really. Whincup's numbers can only be compared to other drivers at the top of their game now.

You can't match him with Lowndes at his best or Skaife, and you certainly can't compare his stats with Brock, Moffat or Geoghegan.



Given the opening post referenced Rossi as well, I can only assume FAS33 does indeed mean Whincup is the second best



Greatest Of All Time

Numbers mean nothing.... Yet you mention drivers specifically for their driving record.

Skaife = total championships and Bathurst victories
Brock = total championships and Bathurst victories
Moffat = total championships and Bathurst victories
Lowndes = total championships and Bathurst victories
Ian Geoghegan = total championships

Your argument all comes down to Numbers lol

Beats all those drivers you mentioned in race wins, poles and Championships. Destroyed Lowndes multiple times.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Numbers mean nothing.... Yet you mention drivers specifically for their driving record.

Skaife = total championships and Bathurst victories
Brock = total championships and Bathurst victories
Moffat = total championships and Bathurst victories
Lowndes = total championships and Bathurst victories
Ian Geoghegan = total championships

Your argument all comes down to Numbers lol

Beats all those drivers you mentioned in race wins, poles and Championships. Destroyed Lowndes multiple times.

No , I was saying you can't compare Whincup to Lowndes, Skaife, Moffat, Brock or Geoghegan because they raced in different eras. You can't compare Lowndes to Moffat, Skaife to Geoghegan, Whincup to Richards or whoever.
The racing is completely different in all of those era's, no stats can be relevant to eachother to make a reasonable comparison.

It's like saying Hamilton is better than Clark, based on what?

I'm still keen to hear what makes you think Rossi is the GOAT of Motorcycle Grand Prix racing?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

No , I was saying you can't compare Whincup to Lowndes, Skaife, Moffat, Brock or Geoghegan because they raced in different eras. You can't compare Lowndes to Moffat, Skaife to Geoghegan, Whincup to Richards or whoever.
The racing is completely different in all of those era's, no stats can be relevant to eachother to make a reasonable comparison.

struggling to make ay sense of your argument

Its very easy to compare. 7 ATCC is greater than 1 ATCC (or 2,3,4,5). however at 6 maybe some other factors can come into play

I really struggle to see how anyone can deny that

[GeoffR]

So (without looking up detailed results) has he matched the start win/ratio of 101 wins from 150 starts that A Moffat achieved with the Trans AM Mustang? To me that would be the GOAT, given it was against Jane, Geoghan, Beechey all with different makes/models, unlike today.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

So (without looking up detailed results) has he matched the start win/ratio of 101 wins from 150 starts that A Moffat achieved with the Trans AM Mustang? To me that would be the GOAT, given it was against Jane, Geoghan, Beechey all with different makes/models, unlike today.

youve been very restrictive with your conditions, excluding big chunks of his career. The fact that you have done that suggests you already no the argument is weak

4 is much less than 7

[GeoffR]

[QUOTE= is much less than 7[/QUOTE]

But quality does not always equal quantity .......

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

But quality does not always equal quantity .......

quality is impossible to compare over periods of time.

The only think we have to compare is quantity

[GeoffR]

You seem to miss the whole point of my comment re the start/win ratio for Moffat in the TransAm Mustang. The modern Stupidcars circuit has so many more events now than was ever the case back in the true ATCC days. Given that JW has only scored his wins/Championships with 888, does his race start/win percentage equal the 66% that Moffat had in the TransAm?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

You seem to miss the whole point of my comment re the start/win ratio for Moffat in the TransAm Mustang. The modern Stupidcars circuit has so many more events now than was ever the case back in the true ATCC days. Given that JW has only scored his wins/Championships with 888, does his race start/win percentage equal the 66% that Moffat had in the TransAm?

Im not missing your point, your point is irrelvant to the discusion.

7 beats 4. all time is bigger than a short period of that time

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

You seem to miss the whole point of my comment re the start/win ratio for Moffat in the TransAm Mustang. The modern Stupidcars circuit has so many more events now than was ever the case back in the true ATCC days. Given that JW has only scored his wins/Championships with 888, does his race start/win percentage equal the 66% that Moffat had in the TransAm?

You can't tell me there were 150 ATCC races in 5 years, back in '69-'74. Because the stats relevent to Mr Whincup, only count championship races.

For what it's worth, Whincup won 28 races in one chassis, across 3 seasons, not including wins when other chassis were used in that same timeframe. I'm curious to see what the start:win ratio is for that particular car.

[Woolley]

I don't think you can say of anyone that they are the Greatest of All Time. The greatest of their era, certainly, because you're comparing equal playing fields.

However, the phrase 'Among the Greatest of All Time' is indisputable.

[Backagain]

Originally Posted by peckstar

quality is impossible to compare over periods of time.

The only think we have to compare is quantity

So basically you're saying that if Joe Bloggs wins 10 Hyundai Excel championships, he is the GOAT touring car driver because the only THING (not think) we can compare is quantity.

[Tourer]

I don't believe that different eras can be accurately compared statistically, as there are too many other variables in the mix beyond the raw numbers.

For example, in my view Moff's Transam Moostang was the greatest touring car we've ever seen here, relative to its opposition - but that view is subjective and any stats don't allow for regulations, closeness of competition etc across different eras.

There can be no definitive, correct answer one way or the other on this but it's an interesting pub (or forum) discussion.

For mine, J Dub is high quality but his head explosions at Bathurst make it hard for me to rate him as GOAT. I can't see other "greatest" contenders throwing away potential victories at the mountain the way that he has.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Backagain

So basically you're saying that if Joe Bloggs wins 10 Hyundai Excel championships, he is the GOAT touring car driver because the only THING (not think) we can compare is quantity.

what a daft argument. I think you are trolling

[FBJim]

I still think it's Lowndes, though the comparisons to NASCAR's Gordon/Johnson are surprising. It's worth noting that Lowndes lost five entire years of his prime in his aborted single-seater career, and then in those god-awful 00 Motorsport/early-days FPR cars, while once joining 888 Whincup has had more than an uninterrupted decade with the best car on the grid- once you factor this in, I'd put him above Whincup by a whisker for modern-era drivers. (how many wins does Whincup lose if you effectively zero out his late 20s?)

If, theoretically, Lowndes had abandoned his F1 dreams and stayed with HRT through 2003 I'd think you'd be talking about a few more years before Whincup beat Lowndes' record of race wins.


(also my personal choice is Jim Richards, but hey, different era)

[FBJim]

(also, Lowndes is clearly the Rossi (or Jeff Gordon) of F1- say what you want about their respective driving abilities, but Lowndes was a transformative figure in the sport, and a huge personality- Whincup has more wins but he's like the Lorenzo type who's far more anonymous to most fans- the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson comparison couldn't be more apt in this case)

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by one five five

I'm still keen to hear what makes you think Rossi is the GOAT of Motorcycle Grand Prix racing?

you ask this question because you think someone else is the GOAT. making it possible someone CAN be the best ever. We think alike.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by FBJim

(also, Lowndes is clearly the Rossi (or Jeff Gordon) of F1- say what you want about their respective driving abilities, but Lowndes was a transformative figure in the sport, and a huge personality- Whincup has more wins but he's like the Lorenzo type who's far more anonymous to most fans- the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson comparison couldn't be more apt in this case)

agree with you on the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson comparison, often thought that about the two of them

[Forda]

This is a bit rich, considering this years' title is right up there in status with the Kelly/Lowndes decider of 2006.

[Jamolad]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

You seem to miss the whole point of my comment re the start/win ratio for Moffat in the TransAm Mustang. The modern Stupidcars circuit has so many more events now than was ever the case back in the true ATCC days. Given that JW has only scored his wins/Championships with 888, does his race start/win percentage equal the 66% that Moffat had in the TransAm?

Don't think we missed the point of your comment, just don't think it is a valid point.

For Moffat's win ratio you are only looking at what he did in a single car (not his entire career), and are looking at results for ATTC races and non-ATTC races.

For JW you are looking at his entire ATTC career (not a single car) and are only looking at ATTC races.

Agree there are more races/events these days, but given you are comparing win conversion ratio then the number of races is irrelevant (calculating win ratio smoothes the differing number of races they entered)...so there is no need to restrict Moff's results to only those in the Mustang and there is no need to include non-ATTC races - you can simply compare their conversion ratio for all ATTC races they entered for their entire career.

Even if we accept your invalid comparison, Moffat has a better race win ratio but loses massively in terms of championships (0 to Moffat in the Mustang, 7 to Jamie in his career).

[Umai Naa]

Moffat - 100 ATCC starts, 32 wins.

Whincup - 434 ATCC starts, 108 wins.

Skaife - 220 ATCC starts, 90 wins.

Lowndes - 635 ATCC starts, 105 wins.

Brock - 212 ATCC starts, 37 wins.

Johnson - 202 ATCC starts, 22 wins.

Geoghegan - 42 ATCC starts, 9 wins.

Do the math on that. I couldn't be bothered.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by FBJim

while once joining 888 Whincup has had more than an uninterrupted decade with the best car on the grid- once you factor this in, I'd put him above Whincup by a whisker for modern-era drivers. (how many wins does Whincup lose if you effectively zero out his late 20s?)

The problem is that you are acting as if the car is fast by magic, but it isn't, it is developed by the drivers. Look how fast the 888 VE was the first year after switching from Ford - it is no miracle...

Originally Posted by FBJim

If, theoretically, Lowndes had abandoned his F1 dreams and stayed with HRT through 2003 I'd think you'd be talking about a few more years before Whincup beat Lowndes' record of race wins.

And if me auntie had balls she'd be me uncle.

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Skaife - 220 ATCC starts, 90 wins.

Skaife's ratio is amazing, but you also have to factor in the GTR somewhat - people act as if a 888 car is not equal to others, but at least from a rules perspective it was!

[djr81]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The problem is that you are acting as if the car is fast by magic, but it isn't, it is developed by the drivers. Look how fast the 888 VE was the first year after switching from Ford - it is no miracle...

I think you'll find that engineers do the engineering. Drivers don't find horsepower or handling or traction or aero or any of the other qualities you want in a race car. They just cry about things that aren't right, leaving it to the engineers to do the development and implement the changes.