No pit stop and two races in STCC 2009

[JMeissner]

The Swedish Touring Car Championship will change its race format for 2009. The pit stop will be scrapped and two races will be held per weekend instead of one. Furthermore has the S2000 rules been confirmed until 2010.
"We are listening to our customers and teams and we need to lower the costs for the competitors," said STCC MD Bob Huzell.

More info:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=2480

[Valenok]

Sweden must use american pit-stop rules - 1 pit for 1 car, 1 domcrat and 2 nut runners. F1 system, when two tens serviced one car while another car stand behind first and watch, make me sad. And it's concern DTM pit-stop rules too. Remember terrible pitstop at last year Mugello.

[werner]

I don't really buy the pitstop-costargument very well. What does it cost really? You only need 5 men and 2 airguns. I have no doubt that on the level of the STCC, those are available to every team anyway, with or without pitstops.
A better explanation would be that Honda and Volvo are struggling a bit with their tyrewear, and that they have asked for this change. And, as the article says, the organizers have listened to those (important) competitors...

[JMeissner]

It costs a lot with pitstops!

You have to have special rims, special what ever it is called where the wheels are fitted on to the car, nascar wheel guns, all the air tubes with hoses, traning for several hours per week for the wheel changing guys, traning for the drivers to do the stops, and the list goes on...

So I think you can buy it

[Jimmy Magnusson]

The training (and at the same time pulling personell from other areas) is perhaps the biggest reason why smaller teams find it difficult. I see they also want to have the racing on Saturday. Would be great if that happens, American Le Mans Series already does it and it works great. Oh, and perhaps this thread could be renamed "STCC 2009 News, Rumors" or whatever the exact name for those yearly threads are?

[werner]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

It costs a lot with pitstops!

You have to have special rims, special what ever it is called where the wheels are fitted on to the car, nascar wheel guns, all the air tubes with hoses, traning for several hours per week for the wheel changing guys, traning for the drivers to do the stops, and the list goes on...

So I think you can buy it

They have to change wheels during a weekend anyway, so they need those things anyway. And the 5-bolt wheels are the same as they are in the BTCC and WTCC, because they need to be according to the rules. That jus leaves a bit of training to do that in a few seconds. Whether it needs several hours training in the week I don't know, but I really can't imagine that it is nescesary to unbolt 5 bolts, pull the wheel from the car, put another one on the car, and put 5 bolts on it....

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by werner

They have to change wheels during a weekend anyway, so they need those things anyway. And the 5-bolt wheels are the same as they are in the BTCC and WTCC, because they need to be according to the rules. That jus leaves a bit of training to do that in a few seconds. Whether it needs several hours training in the week I don't know, but I really can't imagine that it is nescesary to unbolt 5 bolts, pull the wheel from the car, put another one on the car, and put 5 bolts on it....

The wheels are the same, but the hubs they're attached to aren't as they have to be adapted to high-speed wheelchanges. These aren't pre-fab solutions so teams have to develop these hubs themselves.

Its quite a difference whether you change wheels between sessions or in a race. In a race its a competition, so you need to be fast. So you need high/speed wrenches (higher rpm than normal wrench, more expensive as well). And you need training. And theres the trigger. Teams like Westcoast, Flash or Polestar have mechanics in fulltime employment, who can train on a regular basis during working days. The smaller teams use a lot of 'weekend-stars' who take days off to work on the STCC weekends. They don't have that luxury, increasing the gap between rich and poor.

[JMeissner]

Originally Posted by werner

They have to change wheels during a weekend anyway, so they need those things anyway. And the 5-bolt wheels are the same as they are in the BTCC and WTCC, because they need to be according to the rules. That jus leaves a bit of training to do that in a few seconds. Whether it needs several hours training in the week I don't know, but I really can't imagine that it is nescesary to unbolt 5 bolts, pull the wheel from the car, put another one on the car, and put 5 bolts on it....

Thats not correct, I'm afraid.

The tyres are changed anyway, yes, but in a completely different way. As I wrote before the equipment is completely different compared to BTCC, DTC and WTCC-teams.

The wheels are not the same, the base is the same but the wheels have been prepared for quicker fasteing. And as Bram says, the hubs are worked hard on.

As I've stated before the teams train for several hours per week, I tend to know as I work in one of the teams

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Oh, and perhaps this thread could be renamed "STCC 2009 News, Rumors" or whatever the exact name for those yearly threads are?

Was thinking the same, Silly season starts early this year!

SEAT Sweden likely to enter a works SEAT team in STCC next year with DMS (Alx Danilesson), does that mean no more support for Rydell in WTCC? And will he end up in STCC too then? Sounds very interesting.

KMS wants to build VW's to race in STCC next year as it looks like Mattias Ekström's new team might get the Audi factory contract for next year.

Picko Troberg wants back into STCC too after his Honda deal fell through for this season, running MGs in JTCC, might see something fun from the UK next season in STCC?

Next season looks fun already!

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Was thinking the same, Silly season starts early this year!

SEAT Sweden likely to enter a works SEAT team in STCC next year with DMS (Alx Danilesson), does that mean no more support for Rydell in WTCC? And will he end up in STCC too then? Sounds very interesting.

KMS wants to build VW's to race in STCC next year as it looks like Mattias Ekström's new team might get the Audi factory contract for next year.

Are SEAT Sweden, VW Sweden and Audi Sweden the same company? In Holland these brands are imported by the same company.

[JMeissner]

I've heard from reliable sources that SEAT Sweden are not paying anything for the Rydell-drive in WTCC.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

I've heard from reliable sources that SEAT Sweden are not paying anything for the Rydell-drive in WTCC.

Thats good, then SEAT Sweden in STCC wouldnt make any difference for him, so hopefully he'll be in WTCC a few more years.

FIRE: I'm not all too sure, but I belive they are all different importers that spend their money their own way. But on the other hand, I'm not sure if KMS would have any support from VW at all.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Was thinking the same, Silly season starts early this year!

SEAT Sweden likely to enter a works SEAT team in STCC next year with DMS (Alx Danilesson), does that mean no more support for Rydell in WTCC? And will he end up in STCC too then? Sounds very interesting.

DMS/Danielsson talks a lot. First see, then believe...

[FIRE]

DMS = Danielssen Motor Sport?

Any rumours which VW modell KMS wants to use? (Golf, Jetta, Passat or maybe the Scirocco)

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

The wheels are the same, but the hubs they're attached to aren't as they have to be adapted to high-speed wheelchanges. These aren't pre-fab solutions so teams have to develop these hubs themselves.

The simple cost effective solution would be to require standards hubs, no? Allowing teams to develop their own stuff and then complain that it becomes too expensive... I just can't get away from the feeling that it's just trying to come up with excuses.

So you need high/speed wrenches (higher rpm than normal wrench, more expensive as well).

Again, this feels like a regulatory problem. Just mandate exactly which tool(s) you are allowed to use, and the costs will stay the same since nobody will be allowed to buy super expensive equipment. The regulated allowed tools could even be a battery powered, if the airhoses is a major nuicanse/cost problem. The solutions are there, if the wish to solve it is also.


But yes, the training is hard to keep up with for the smaller teams. But by not having pitstops we also lose a lot. Eg it limits the racing to the (IMO) dumbed down sprint races as well as losing the very clear connection to that this is a team sport. IMO it also added a lot of excitement to the races with the pitstops since the tire dynamic effects caused a lot of extra ON TRACK track passing.

In any case, Im by far not convinced we have won more than we lost with these changes. The biggest cost issues could have been dealt with via stricter regulations instead and, after all, if costs is the only single factor of consideration, why aren't we turning STCC into racing karts instead?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Are SEAT Sweden, VW Sweden and Audi Sweden the same company? In Holland these brands are imported by the same company.

I would assume so. At least the local VAG cardealer sells and maintains all 3 brandnames. But we still have all these 3 brands in the Juniour TCC racing each other. But that is of course a relative low profile support series, not the high cost race weekend main event.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

You're right that most of the technical points could probably be solved with regulations, but the man hours must by itself play a big part in the costs. Overall I think the racing will benefit from not having a pit stop and even more from having two races instead of one (as long as they are proper races, 25-30 minutes would be good but probably won't happen). I disagree that not having pit stops dumbs down racing it this case. As it is now they don't need to pit, it's just tacked on to heighten the entertainment vaule. Endurance racing shows how it should be done. If there's a benefit to pitting, pit. If not, stay out.

[stedevil]

IIRC, from a on track crowd poll, I think the crowd is pretty much split right in the middle on this one, with half prefering 2 sprint races and the other half the 1 medium distance + pitstop format. For live TV coverage however the 1 longer race for sure is preferable. Real endurance racing, where teams can them self decide what pitstop tactics to use (including 0), unfortunately won't really work on the TV, which matters for sponsors. Right now I just hope the proper TV coverage will remain even with the new format, though I fear we again will get a crappy highlights show instead.

[JMeissner]

The technical stuff of the tyre change process is a part that could be regulated via the organisers. But the thing that is costing the most money is the staff training for it, that cant be changed with rules...

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

But the thing that is costing the most money is the staff training for it, that cant be changed with rules...

For sure no, but what costs more in parts and manpower, 1s quicker in the pitstop or 1s quicker on the track?

The smaller teams with less budget will never be able to keep up in any case, pitstop or no pitstop. So in essence we are always talking about money spent vs the crowd entertainment it buys.

Since Im not sitting with the bills in front of me I can't make a fully informed opinion on if this was the right decision, but I really hope that the cost savings benefit will really be worth the cost negative in entertainment value.

[JMeissner]

But smaller teams can keep up better if the pitstop is scrapped.

Just look at Roger Eriksson's and Mattias Andersson's team. Their cars are fast enough, but they cant keep up with the bigger teams due to the pitstops. They either make a mistake during the stop or are just very much slower and loose so much time they can't fight for the top.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Just look at Roger Eriksson's and Mattias Andersson's team.

Yes, they are at a definte disadvantage since, as no big team run the same cars, they can't even buy the service from another team.

But if you make rulechanges that cut the same ammount (or more) in cost in areas that are completely uninteresting for the viewers (eg make parts more durable so they dont need to changed so often) wouldn't that allow the smaller teams to remain competitive without removing parts of the racing that actually creates a good show?

And if STCC are supposed to be looking out for the smaller teams, why the *ell did they this year change from best 1 car scoring teampoints to best 2 cars scoring? That does nothing but exclude the smaller teams from good pointscoring opportunities and destroy any chance what so ever to keep competitive and fight with the bigger teams over a full season.

[werner]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Thats not correct, I'm afraid.

The tyres are changed anyway, yes, but in a completely different way. As I wrote before the equipment is completely different compared to BTCC, DTC and WTCC-teams.

The wheels are not the same, the base is the same but the wheels have been prepared for quicker fasteing. And as Bram says, the hubs are worked hard on.

As I've stated before the teams train for several hours per week, I tend to know as I work in one of the teams

Ok, since you're an insider in a team that is probably benefitting from the current format, what did you and Westcoast had to say about this change?