[Team] Sauber F1 in trouble

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bella

where do you think that leaves bianchi?

In a car that is hopefully not on fire.

[I Rosputnik]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

As Sniff Petrol put it:

"Force India will not run KERS on Paul di Resta’s car this season, preferring to use a unique hybrid system that harnesses the pure power of Scottish misery."
.

***

Anyway interesting to read about Telmex going to McLaren, I thought they were with both Perez and Gutierrez?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bella

where do you think that leaves bianchi?

I'm expecting Ferrari to keep Massa for another year then put Bianchi into the car after that. They could have ditched Massa for Hulkenberg at the end of last season if they'd wanted him.

[bella]

Originally Posted by I Rosputnik

Anyway interesting to read about Telmex going to McLaren, I thought they were with both Perez and Gutierrez?

thats how gutierrez ended up at sauber in the first place. you've got to say on the strength of this season they'd have to have the patience of a sai... well, eric boullier to keep him on if he doesn't bring any decent sized wad. i'm sure he's a lovely bloke and he was really really good in his earlier days but as he's got further up the ladder and more variables have been introduced to his racing he's been less consistently able to do a good job.

unlike frijns, who has had this epic reputation and managed to live up to it every time he has moved up into a new series, he just doesn't seem to be able to make the most of his opportunities.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I'm expecting Ferrari to keep Massa for another year then put Bianchi into the car after that. They could have ditched Massa for Hulkenberg at the end of last season if they'd wanted him.

see, the only thing that stops me agreeing with that would be... what's the point in another year at marussia? are sauber using ferrari engines next year, is there a deal to be had there, i wonder?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bella

see, the only thing that stops me agreeing with that would be... what's the point in another year at marussia? are sauber using ferrari engines next year, is there a deal to be had there, i wonder?

I agree that another year at Marussia will prove nothing but he's better of there than being a 3rd driver somewhere (more F1 track time, more experience on the F1 circuits). Are Marussia using Ferrari lumps next season? Cosworth aren't doing a turbo engine are they so Marussia need to get a powerplant from somewhere. Sauber would be a better option but will they be around? (will Marussia?) I suppose Gutierrez and Bianchi - with Telmex backing and discounted Ferrari engines is an option.

[p-matt]

Originally Posted by bella

where do you think that leaves bianchi?

My hunch is Sauber or Force India.

[bella]

apparently it cost kimiya sato €250,000 to do the young drivers test at silverstone with sauber, so presumably that'll help the cashflow a bit.

or you know, maybe 3 events at a push in gp2 for frijns.

have ferrari confirmed any customers for 2014? obviously toro rosso have binned them off in favour of renault, i bet hosting jules in exchange for a good engine deal would be well worth the hassle. is gutierrez on a two year deal? monisha kaltenborn says they announce their drivers "season by season" in that article from autosport i posted earlier about hulkenberg, but that doesn't really mean he hasn't got a contract i spose.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bella

have ferrari confirmed any customers for 2014?

I don't think so but Sauber are the most likely suspects (along with Marussia - they need an engine from somewhere - the Renault and Mercedes lumps are already largely accounted for aren't they? The Ferrari engines are certainly the ones that look to be 'spare' at the moment)

Originally Posted by bella

is gutierrez on a two year deal? monisha kaltenborn says they announce their drivers "season by season" in that article from autosport i posted earlier about hulkenberg, but that doesn't really mean he hasn't got a contract i spose.

I guess they've got an option for next year? If they need money then it makes sense they'd want to keep him if he's well backed (although he's obviously not well backed enough to carry the whole operation).

[bella]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I don't think so but Sauber are the most likely suspects (along with Marussia - they need an engine from somewhere - the Renault and Mercedes lumps are already largely accounted for aren't they? The Ferrari engines are certainly the ones that look to be 'spare' at the moment)

interesting that they've been left with the teams who are up the creek with a malfunctioning paddle, and with no announcements so far. speculating wildly, it would suggest some sort of commercial wranglings going on somewhere.

it's baffling that a swiss team can't get any swiss money. i know their young drivers aren't exactly rolling in local sponsorship either. is there a currency strength issue here?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bella

it's baffling that a swiss team can't get any swiss money. i know their young drivers aren't exactly rolling in local sponsorship either. is there a currency strength issue here?

Switzerland still has a complete ban on motorsport, AFAIK.

[chillibowl]

i recall reading something strange like that since the accident and the subsequent ban on the sport, they do not recognize racing as allowable employment hence income you make from it is not taxable.

if thats true would that mean that Sauber's employees also receive tax free income and/or what about the teams profits?

but i guess Sauber's problem is that they dont make any profits so no worry there.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Switzerland still has a complete ban on motorsport, AFAIK.

It was removed 5 years ago:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/06/0...tor-sport-ban/

[Mekola]

When teams like Sauber are in risk, it's high time to redefine F1 budgets, not only of teams and drivers, but overall. I'm afraid Mosley was right with his budget cap thing, though.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

It was removed 5 years ago:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/06/0...tor-sport-ban/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Grand_Prix#Absence

however the legislation was not ratified and the ban goes on.

really it cant be a total ban otherwise how could Sauber be allowed to operate in Switzerland?
seems like its just a ban on racing that has produced some odd ramifications like to drivers salaries.

getting back to the question, perhaps in addition to the ban perhaps most Swiss companies have no interest in F1. After Credit Suisse left and their scandals (which had nothing to do with F1 mind you) perhaps f1 in Switzerland is doubly disliked among the power brokers there.

[Adam43]

Well I heard that Swiss TV isn't allowed to show Motorsport either and when TGF moved there he had to enter a false occupation to get in, he chose cobbler.

They have hill climbs there. It ain't a complete ban. Just racing in Switzerland isn't allowed.

Hulkenberg leaving at the end of h year would be a blow for the team, although I think it was always likely assuming a bigger team realise!
I don't expect the engine thing to be a problem. All the engine suppliers will make sure all the teams are supplied for next year. Remember Brawn, someone will come in even if iris late on. There are often teams still to sign up a deal at this stage of he year. That is probably made worse with the changing regs and the number of changes we've seen recently. It just needs to settle.

[Starfish Primer]

There is a Swiss Hillclimb championship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_8B0mkrc_8

There are a lot of Swiss racing teams, Matech or Rebellion racing in GT-Endurance.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Hulkenberg leaving at the end of h year would be a blow for the team, although I think it was always likely assuming a bigger team realise!
I don't expect the engine thing to be a problem. All the engine suppliers will make sure all the teams are supplied for next year. Remember Brawn, someone will come in even if iris late on. There are often teams still to sign up a deal at this stage of he year. That is probably made worse with the changing regs and the number of changes we've seen recently. It just needs to settle.

Sauber kinda looks sponsor-free at the moment, large panels of dark grey, with no real visible means of support. Reminds me of the Tyrrells of the 80's and early 90's...

A question might be, if Mr Sauber is in the press telling people he is asking his suppliers for some patience in terms of payment terms, does this trigger anything inside the Concorde Agreement?

[Adam43]

Possibly, although I think the desire from everyone to not lose a team will be stronger.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Mekola

When teams like Sauber are in risk, it's high time to redefine F1 budgets, not only of teams and drivers, but overall. I'm afraid Mosley was right with his budget cap thing, though.

It is. Whether an enforced budget cap is the way to do it, I don't know, but the status quo is just silly. As Bella's said, with the exception of the few at the front, the remainder of the grid is composed of teams one sponsor [or rich driver] away from bankruptcy.

[wolfhound]

I seem to remember reading some where recently that there are seven teams who are in the financial danger zone.

That leaves four teams who are secure who I suspect are Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren & Mercedes.

[bella]

Originally Posted by davyboy

...with the exception of the few at the front, the remainder of the grid is composed of teams one sponsor [or rich driver] away from bankruptcy.

i think this is always how it is in motorsport though, and rightly.

motorsport at it's heart is a research and development business. if a r&d company makes profit that isn't invested back into making it bigger/faster/better/stronger then it's being mismanaged. anything in a constant, moving changing industry (so basically, anything except retail then) requires constant improvement to keep up, stay ahead and maintain the market for their product, and motorsport is a textbook example.

the problem with that model is when your cashflow changes, you have to do some creative accountancy to make ends meet. this is completely counter-culture in many of the more, ummm, financially stable eu countries like germany (and probably switzerland, idk, i don't deal with any suppliers based there). they work on a maximum of 30 days, and most companies take advantage of prompt payment discounts. in the uk, it's anywhere from end of month to 30-90+ days, and you can lean on suppliers to test their flexibility for when you *really* need to stretch the budget till that payment comes in.

when your overall incomings change, you have to make adjustments. redundancy is often more expensive than keeping the employees on, *especially* in germany. so what can you do? it's very difficult to downsize once you've expanded. in the uk your best bet is to expand with contract workers on slightly higher rates of pay to compensate for the fact they'll be the first to be binned off if things get tight.

tl;dr - of course teams are within one larger sponsor dropping out of receivership. it's research and development. that's how it works. that's why i don't trust ANY of these "*insert team name* in trouble" reports, because invariably the journo or source doesn't understand how that sort of company works.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Whichever team's name is in front of the "in trouble" the core reason is the same.

Formula One itself makes an extraordinary profit, but 50% or so of those funds, for historic reasons, are distributed to Bernie and his hedge fund pals who trouser it gladly and reinvest nothing.

The only reason they get away with this is because the teams themselves are just as competitive off track as they are on it and can barely agree what day of the week is Sunday let alone have the wherewithal to use their collective power to challenge the status quo.

Until somebody is able to bang the team owners heads together and wake them up this situation will continue ad infinitum. Only the team name will change in front of "in trouble" on the thread..

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

It is. Whether an enforced budget cap is the way to do it, I don't know, but the status quo is just silly. As Bella's said, with the exception of the few at the front, the remainder of the grid is composed of teams one sponsor [or rich driver] away from bankruptcy.

If medium teams with decent results like Sauber live with only one sponsor/rich driver then there is a big problem in the F1 media exposure. Bernie and his "yes men" always talk about how big the F1 is, the TV audiences and how good the F1 is to make business. The reality is that sponsors are scarce, only 3 cars manufacturers (none of which are in the top 5) and promoters need public subsidies to organize the races.

The emperor looks naked for me.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Mekola

I'm afraid Mosley was right with his budget cap thing, though.

Yes, he was.

It seems it's not likely that Sauber will get much help from BE, either.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...ys-ecclestone/

[321Go]

Originally Posted by bella

those sources are a bit ropey. i'd be curious to know if any of them have a direct presence at the races or whether they just pick up on second hand rumour.

Sorry folks, please disregard. The story is just a second hand rumour. Sauber aren't in trouble because the source is a bit ropey.