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Old 27 May 2018, 19:31 (Ref:3825070)   #176
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Old 27 May 2018, 19:31 (Ref:3825071)   #177
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Passes were not as rare as was made out
Except they really were. Sorry, but you're just wrong on this. Passes for position were very very rare. And almost every one of them came right after a caution.
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Old 27 May 2018, 19:34 (Ref:3825073)   #178
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Old 27 May 2018, 19:37 (Ref:3825075)   #179
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Except they really were. Sorry, but you're just wrong on this. Passes for position were very very rare. And almost every one of them came right after a caution.
We had 3 passes in 4 minutes during the side-by-side commercial break towards the end (one of which was for the lead), and we had Rossi make several into turn 3 whilst not on a restart. I mean, I guess passes were rare...if you ignore the passes.

Sorry if that doesn't fit with the "I love the perfect DW12" narrative. I'll leave you to that echo chamber
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Old 27 May 2018, 19:41 (Ref:3825077)   #180
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Another stat, Will Power is the first Australian to win the 500.
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Old 27 May 2018, 19:42 (Ref:3825078)   #181
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Will Power is "good with any kind if milk". Damn right!
Ed bringing old the old guy contingent with buttermilk. And wonder if Tony was asked then Leist right after him with the "I don't care the temp" response.

Thankfully no conspiracy and complaints with someone asking for OJ, his own OJ after the race.

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Old 27 May 2018, 19:46 (Ref:3825079)   #182
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We had 3 passes in 4 minutes during the side-by-side commercial break towards the end (one of which was for the lead), and we had Rossi make several into turn 3 whilst not on a restart. I mean, I guess passes were rare...if you ignore the passes.
If you ignore the context. Some of those were lapped cars and cars having to save a load of fuel.
There were simply far, far fewer passes and almost no lead changes on track. That's a fact you cannot deny. We were promised the opposite, because the myth that less downforce = better racing still persists.
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Old 27 May 2018, 19:54 (Ref:3825080)   #183
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If you ignore the context. Some of those were lapped cars and cars having to save a load of fuel.
There were simply far, far fewer passes and almost no lead changes on track. That's a fact you cannot deny. We were promised the opposite, because the myth that less downforce = better racing still persists.
We get it, you hate the new kit even though the old kit made for terrible racing and made HPD look like they forgot aero every so often. Bring FACTS to make an argument, so far I've seen no numbers from either of you just the usual you're wrong bashing.

Some of us actually read articles and interviews Ankit the new aero kit from drivers, owners, engineers. I know, it's hard but actual information can be useful and informative. Passing was up at PIR this year and was expected to be up at Indy. However, up is relative as I believe last year was one of the lowest passes for lead races in a while. And higher temps supposedly massively impact the car's handling.

Also it's not a myth about low DF for this kit. It's WHERE the DF comes from, it's close to last year's levels but much less tuneable as the majority comes from the underbody not the wings. But reading can be hard

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Old 27 May 2018, 20:05 (Ref:3825082)   #184
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We get it, you hate the new kit even though the old kit made for terrible racing and made HPD look like they forgot aero every so often. Bring FACTS to make an argument, so far I've seen no numbers from either of you just the usual you're wrong bashing.
The racing was actually great. IndyCar has been amazing to watch the last few years. FACTS: The years since 2012 had more lead changes and passing than at any point in Indy history. Especially the last two years it was possible to keep the lead but it was also possible to pass if you set it up correctly. That's why it slightly went down last year as well. We've also had passes for the win in the final laps more often than ever as well. Has everybody forgotten 2014 already? That was a perfect ending because it was both possible to attack and to defend as well. That's the right balance, and we saw absolutely none of that today.

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Some of us actually read articles and interviews Ankit the new aero kit from drivers, owners, engineers. I know, it's hard but actual information can be useful and informative. Passing was up at PIR this year and was expected to be up at Indy. However, up is relative as I believe last year was one of the lowest passes for lead races in a while. And higher temps supposedly massively impact the car's handling.
I've read those too. Pointless drivel for the most part. Pagenaud suggesting it was going to be a 'draft happy race', where the hell did he get that idea?

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Also it's not a myth about low DF for this kit. It's WHERE the DF comes from, it's close to last year's levels but much less tuneable as the majority comes from the underbody not the wings. But reading can be hard
So, where is the better racing then? And no downforce levels are significantly lower than last year while having more drag.

https://racer.com/2018/05/19/insight...uning-options/

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Old 27 May 2018, 20:12 (Ref:3825085)   #185
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The racing was actually great. IndyCar has been amazing to watch the last few years. FACTS: The years since 2012 had more lead changes and passing than at any point in Indy history. Especially the last two years it was possible to keep the lead but it was also possible to pass if you set it up correctly. That's why it slightly went down last year as well. We've also had passes for the win in the final laps more often than ever as well. Has everybody forgotten 2014 already? That was a perfect ending because it was both possible to attack and to defend as well. That's the right balance, and we saw absolutely none of that today.


I've read those too. Pointless drivel for the most part.


So, where is the better racing then?
I was commenting purely on your bs and will frankly insanely ill-informed claims of lower DF=better racing being Indycar's goal. That part is pure and utter bs as that was never the intent. Cleaner DF with less loss following a car was the goal but hey why read the actual documents when you can be an internet pundit without having to put your name on it or actually use facts. The FACY is you are blatantly uniformed or just pigheaded and can not admit when you're wrong

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Old 27 May 2018, 20:14 (Ref:3825086)   #186
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If you ignore the context. Some of those were lapped cars and cars having to save a load of fuel.
There were simply far, far fewer passes and almost no lead changes on track. That's a fact you cannot deny. We were promised the opposite, because the myth that less downforce = better racing still persists.
Regarding overtaking, bear in mind the track was green as it had rained the previous night and the track needed to rubber in, which it did during the course of the race.

The other thing to bear in mind is, this is a 500 mile race not a sprint race and I don't expect drivers to go hell for leather and overtake each other at every opportunity, this race requires a measured approach, which was exemplified by Will Power.
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:22 (Ref:3825088)   #187
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Cleaner DF with less loss following a car was the goal
Nonsense, and even if it was it very clearly failed massively. All the PR regurgitated explicitly mentioned the less downforce part, and as you can see in the link I provided above the car actually does have quite a lot less downforce than before.
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:24 (Ref:3825089)   #188
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The other thing to bear in mind is, this is a 500 mile race not a sprint race and I don't expect drivers to go hell for leather and overtake each other at every opportunity, this race requires a measured approach, which was exemplified by Will Power.
That was the case the last few years as well, yet we still saw a lot more passing and lead changes. Nothing about the race has changed besides the aero kits. The drivers weren't going 'hell for leather' before this.
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:26 (Ref:3825090)   #189
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That was the case the last few years as well, yet we still saw a lot more passing and lead changes. Nothing about the race has changed besides the aero kits.
Don't forget the green track.
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:30 (Ref:3825092)   #190
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Do you really think a less green track has that much impact? I sincerely doubt it.
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:35 (Ref:3825093)   #191
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Do you really think a less green track has that much impact? I sincerely doubt it.
Of course it does, as it affects the car's mechanical grip and traction.
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:36 (Ref:3825094)   #192
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Another stat, Will Power is the first Australian to win the 500.
Not a bad weekend to be an Aussie.. with DR @ Monaco too!

Still, I had wondered if Mr Carpenter could defy the odds and get the job done. The (much) smaller private team did great to lead & end up 2nd..
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:38 (Ref:3825095)   #193
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Do you really think a less green track has that much impact? I sincerely doubt it.
...yes. That's not even a question.

That's like trying to downplay the effect the moon has on tides.
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:40 (Ref:3825096)   #194
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Also to give some context: I'm mainly unhappy about IndyCar meddling with a perfectly good formula for the wrong reasons. The racing was, as I said, fine. The stated claim was that removing the aero kits and going with a less downforce heavy car would improve the racing. Somehow. But really, what could possibly be improved? The manufacturer aero kits didn't even get a proper chance before the new guy came in with a kneejerk reaction. We had great Indy 500s, even great races at Barber which previously was always a sleep inducing procession (most road races were). So now we have this. All the PR crap about how amazing the car looks (I actually agree with that, it looks cool) and how much better it would be with less downforce. I never bought it then and this race showed why.


To me it all reeks of a kneejerk reaction in response to a lot of whiners, both those who didn't like the look of the cars and those proponents of the myth I described earlier. So many people screaming that all of racing's problems can be solved if there was just less downforce. It's become a religion at this point. And now that the new aerokit is here people have huge cognitive dissonance because they have to defend it. (not so much here on this board, thankfully.)
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:41 (Ref:3825097)   #195
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Of course it does, as it affects the car's mechanical grip and traction.
I think the high temps were an issue too. New car, new conditions. I thought the drivers did a pretty good job. It wasn't the one offs and rookies making all the errors, serious talent got it wrong multiple times today.
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Not a bad weekend to be an Aussie.. with DR @ Monaco too!

Still, I had wondered if Mr Carpenter could defy the odds and get the job done. The (much) smaller private team did great to lead & end up 2nd..
I was pulling for Carpenter too, but happy to see Power pull one off.
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:42 (Ref:3825098)   #196
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Of course it does, as it affects the car's mechanical grip and traction.
So what are you saying? If the track was less green passing would have been a lot more plentyful? The new aerokit had almost no impact on the racing whatsoever?
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Old 27 May 2018, 20:44 (Ref:3825099)   #197
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...yes. That's not even a question.

That's like trying to downplay the effect the moon has on tides.
Then how much effect does the new aerokit really have then? Would it have been a slingshot fest if the temp was lower and the track was less green?
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Old 27 May 2018, 21:12 (Ref:3825106)   #198
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So what are you saying? If the track was less green passing would have been a lot more plentyful? The new aerokit had almost no impact on the racing whatsoever?
It's a lot harder to control the car, let alone overtake, if you've got the car sliding around because of a lack of mechanical grip.
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Old 27 May 2018, 22:28 (Ref:3825111)   #199
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I honestly enjoyed this race greatly today. Yeah, not as much passing as years past, but there was plenty of racing and stories to keep the intrigue for me.

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Not a bad weekend to be an Aussie.. with DR @ Monaco too!
Too bad Marcos "Taz" Ambrose ain't in the 600...
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Old 27 May 2018, 22:55 (Ref:3825119)   #200
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Damn. This was by far the most boring Indy 500 in the DW12 era.

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