What makes people think that because a car turns corners it must be more advanced?

[Franklin]

Or that going fast in a straight line is somehow easy?

The rapid advancements in speed by the Summers brothers with Goldenrod and Art Arfons with Green Monster were the exception not the rule. Goldenrod was the Summers brothers sixth Bonneville car. Green Monster was Art Arfons third Bonneville car.

Athol Grahham (who in 1959 had gone 344 mph) and Glen Leasher both got killed trying to break John Cobb´s 394 mph record. Although he went 406 mph one way, Mickey Thompson also failed to break to Cobb´s record.

Both of Craig Breedlove´s record holding cars, Spirit of America and Spirit of America - Sonic I, each required extensive trial runs and modifications before they started breaking records.

After the Summers brothers set their 409.9 mph record in 1965, Mickey Thompson failed to break their record with his Ford Autolite Special. Noel Black got killed trying to break the Summers brothers record.

[KC]

I think that most of those who disagreed with you didn't think that other froms of racing where somehow less advanced and therefore beneath their attention, they just didn't agree with your statements that formula cars are over-rated as motor racing. I like every kind of motor racing in the world. This weekend and three days alone I watched the Candian GP, the CART race from Belle Isle, the Indy lights race from Belle Isle, a Formula One tunnel hull boat race, the Springfield Mile Grand National Bike race, a little of the IRL race, some of the Pocono 500, some of the World of Oulaw event at Topeka, and the NHRA event from Columbus. While I was watching them not one time did I compare them to the others I had watched and say, "Wow, this is better than that." They are all different and have their high and low points. The only comparison is that all require drivers, all require guts and skill, and all are fun to watch. This doesn't denigrate the efforts of one crew or driver or series or raise one up over the others. However, there is some I will watch religiously or instead of another if I cannot tape it. I missed all but a little of the webcast for LeMans, it doesn't mean I like Formula One boat racig more than sports cars, just that I watched what I could.

As far as circuit racing being somehow more difficult than drag racing, its hard to say. F1 and CART road races require thousands of setup compromises and lightning quick "during the race" tactical changes that drag racing does not require. But, I would hazard to guess that controlling a 7000 horsepower funny car is infinitely harder to do for 5 seconds than the worst F1 or CART machine was for the same amount of time. Knowing what setups on a funny car or pro-stocker requires the same level of dedication as it does to set up a CART machine and both probably require less than F1. But, the mission of each team is so different, its like comparing horse racing and a pie eating contest. Both require the task to be done at the best possible time, but beyond that there is little in common.

[ma]

Yes Frank - going in a straight line is easy, at least compared to going fast around corners. That's why so many unqualified people try it - it doesn't take years of 1000's of hours of practice to hold a car on a straight line, nor does it take massive amounts of engineering genius to build a tube framed, enclosed car & bolt in a 1000 hp motor ( or whatever ). The exceptions are the cars that approach or break the speed of sound. That is truely an engineering feat that one can be proud of.

The rest of it is ho-hum stuff.

So, YES, a top flight REAL RACE CAR is more advanced than a straight line car, an usually by a BIG margin.

Please go away.

[Franklin]

Hey, MA.

Try over 2,000+ horsepower, genius. The cars at Bonneville that run over 400 mph aren't some dinky formula car tooling around a road course.

Beginning with the construction of John Cobb's Railton in 1937/38, only five piston engine cars have ever clocked over 400 mph and out of that five only two set a record over 400 mph (the Summers brothers Goldenrod and Al Teague's car). Goldenrod is the first and so far only normally aspirated car to clock over 400 mph. Throughout the entire seventies and eighties nobody anywhere went 400 mph with a piston engine car.

[ma]

Yes, but did anyone of any real competance try ?

As I said before, driving in a straight line isn't that big a deal, not compared to road racing at the top levels, nor does it take all that much engineering talent to bolt in a LOT of HP into a somewhat streamlined car and floor it. That's why the big engineering firms don't bother - it doesn't mean much !

[Franklin]

"Yes, but did anyone of any real competance try ?"
Hopefully, MA, that's a rhetorical question because otherwise I'll have to regard it as not only the stupidest question ever posed on this website but asked by someone who has not the slightest comprehension of the engineering talent that went into cars such as the Railton and the Goldenrod.

[Franklin]

MA, when Art Arfons took his Cyclops jet dragster to Bonneville in 1962, he equipped it with a wing mounted above the car and actuated by a hydraulic cylinder attached to the front suspension. That year Arfons set a USAC jet national speed record of 330 mph. When Arfons returned to Bonneville in 1964 with his Green Monster land speed record car, he again used the high-mounted self-adjusting wing concept. So when Jim Hall showed up at Le Mans with the same concept it was FIVE YEARS after Art Arfons had already started using it and TWO YEARS after Arfons had set his third World Land Speed Record using it.

[ma]

We all know that you are in love with these guys, Frank, but get real ! Not one of them could design a competitive road race car, nevermind drive one competitively !Open your eyes and go out & take a good look at what it takes to be competitive at the top nowadays. Actually, I'de be willing to bet that you wouldn't comprehend what is there in front of you !!!!

[Franklin]

"We all know that you are in love with these guys, Frank, but get real ! Not one of them could design a competitive road race car, nevermind drive one competitively !Open your eyes and go out & take a good look at what it takes to be competitive at the top nowadays. Actually, I'de be willing to bet that you wouldn't comprehend what is there in front of you !!!!"

A prime example of the "Since MA personally doesn't like it, it therefore must not be true" response (i.e., never letting facts get in the way).

[ma]

Frank, you're beautiful ! Your ability to face up to the facts, as you state it, is precious !

You have yet to state ANYTHING that proves that a LSR car is better than a road race car ; so far it's just been your insistance that they are. The rest of the engineering world thinks otherwise.

Sorry, cowboy, you are in a forum where everyone here knows that that ain't so, so you'll have to do better than that ! The onus is on you, not us !

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Come back with one of your patented replys - reading you at the end of the work day is just too much fun!

[Franklin]

MA,

"Frank, you're beautiful ! Your ability to face up to the facts, as you state it, is precious !" That's an ironic statement considering your failure to comprehend basic laws of aerodynamics.

The fact you WERE COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF THE CUBE LAW until I explained it to you certainly explains why you have not the slightest comprehension of the enormous accomplishment of people such as Art Arfons and the Summers brothers. People such as yourself who are so technically ignorant they think merely doubling horsepower doubles speed are in no position whatsoever to comment on land speed racing.