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View Poll Results: Who will win the 2020 VASC Series?
#25 WAU - Chaz Mostert - Commodore 1 2.04%
#4 JSR - Jack Smith - Commodore 1 2.04%
#5 Tickford - Lee Holdsworth - Mustang 0 0%
#6 Tickford - Cam Waters - Mustang 2 4.08%
#7 KR - Andre Heimgartner - Mustang 0 0%
#8 BJR - Nick Percat - Commodore 0 0%
#9 Erebus - David Reynolds - Commodore 0 0%
#12 DJRTP - Fabian Coulthard - Mustang 0 0%
#14 BJR - Todd Hazelwood - Commodore 0 0%
#15 KR - Rick Kelly - Mustang 0 0%
#17 DJRTP - Scott McLaughlin - Mustang 25 51.02%
#18 Team18 - Mark Winterbottom - Commodore 0 0%
#19 Team Sydney - James Courtney - Commodore 1 2.04%
#3 TBR - Macauley Jones - Commodore 1 2.04%
#2 WAU - Bryce Fullwood - Commodore 0 0%
#23 23Red - Will Davison - Mustang 0 0%
#34 MSR - Zane Goddard/Jake Kostecki - Commodore 1 2.04%
#35 MSR - Garry Jacobson - Commodore 0 0%
#55 Tickford - Jack Le Brocq - Mustang 0 0%
#20 Team18 - Scott Pye - Commodore 0 0%
#88 RBHRT - Jamie Whincup - Commodore 5 10.20%
#22 Team Sydney - Chris Pither - Commodore 0 0%
#97 RBHRT - Shane Van Gisbergen - Commodore 12 24.49%
#99 Erebus - Anton de Pasquale - Commodore 0 0%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 16 Oct 2019, 00:06 (Ref:3934815)   #501
mayhem
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mayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Interesting that the Supercheap merch was on special at the Tickford tent, 30% off everything...
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Old 16 Oct 2019, 01:44 (Ref:3934825)   #502
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Interesting that the Supercheap merch was on special at the Tickford tent, 30% off everything...
Team BOC hats were $10 too...
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Old 16 Oct 2019, 03:24 (Ref:3934837)   #503
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But you need more than two uprights and wishbones per entry... You need at least four per entry (one set of spares) and ideally probably a third set... So make that $150,000 per entry for three sets per entry.

But then 888 are inclined to go and change the design again, and leave you behind.


And 888 are doing such good business they have rather long lead times on these parts...

I'm sure Mr. Holloway is more than capable of designing his own. Kingpin, caster, pickup points et cetera --- how hard can it be!?

Like I said before, split A-arm designs with double ball joints like on road going Alfas, Volvos, BMWs and Audis are not even allowed. It's a simple design with two wishbones -- the very Project Blueprint double wishbone design derives from the Australian Ford Falcon carrying on the double wishbone front end from 1960's Ford USA products for crying out loud. It shouldn't be that complicated...
Designing suspension for a double wishbone car is VERY difficult, a couple of millimetres variation can make the difference between great and not so great. If it was so simple why isnt everyone doing it??? Maybe you should tender for the control upright... they use the Mustang II upright in a lot of speedway car in the USA maybe you could copy it....

Anyway, off my horse. Designing a good independant suspension (for a race car) is difficult and I have only seen a handful of people in Australia that really understand it. Anyone can design one, but whether it works or not is another matter altogether.

When I was in racing I saw a great many 'professionally designed' cars that had it wrong, some by a long way. On one car I moved 1 pickup point 3mm and turned the car from a dog to a multi championship winning car.
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Old 16 Oct 2019, 04:29 (Ref:3934844)   #504
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Designing suspension for a double wishbone car is VERY difficult, a couple of millimetres variation can make the difference between great and not so great. If it was so simple why isnt everyone doing it??? Maybe you should tender for the control upright... they use the Mustang II upright in a lot of speedway car in the USA maybe you could copy it....

Anyway, off my horse. Designing a good independant suspension (for a race car) is difficult and I have only seen a handful of people in Australia that really understand it. Anyone can design one, but whether it works or not is another matter altogether.

When I was in racing I saw a great many 'professionally designed' cars that had it wrong, some by a long way. On one car I moved 1 pickup point 3mm and turned the car from a dog to a multi championship winning car.
That kind of variance is also where the cost is.

If you can afford to build a thousand different variations and test them all out, it's going to cost big money. Big money you can attempt to recoup by selling them to your competitors, or at least the version before the one you've currently settled on.

If you want to design your own instead of buying one off the shelf, and you get it slightly wrong, you're nowhere. You're nowhere because so much of the rest of the car is controlled, and then you've boxed yourself into a corner with one of the few parts you can change.
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Old 16 Oct 2019, 11:26 (Ref:3934936)   #505
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Old 16 Oct 2019, 13:45 (Ref:3934964)   #506
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The compulsory pit stops at Bathurst were in place long before COTF - in fact before Project Blueprint so I don't see them going away simply because we're back to Ford & Holden only.
The current 7 compulsory stops at Bathurst was brought in for 2013, the same year of the fuel drop, and for the same reason

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3 new car brands joined the series.

7 years a failure?

Outlived Group A, Super Touring....
Group A ran for 8 years in Australia, Super Touring for 9

How many of those new manufacturers stuck round?
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Old 16 Oct 2019, 19:45 (Ref:3935027)   #507
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The current 7 compulsory stops at Bathurst was brought in for 2013, the same year of the fuel drop, and for the same reason
Sure, but compulsory pit stops were in place long before that (you didn't mention how many in your post).

Now that you have, it may be possible for that number to be reduced although from memory part of the reason to go to 7 was the smaller tanks on COTF and E85 not having the same range as the unleaded used previously (although I may be a little out on what happened in which year).
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Old 16 Oct 2019, 21:30 (Ref:3935060)   #508
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Sure, but compulsory pit stops were in place long before that (you didn't mention how many in your post).

Now that you have, it may be possible for that number to be reduced although from memory part of the reason to go to 7 was the smaller tanks on COTF and E85 not having the same range as the unleaded used previously (although I may be a little out on what happened in which year).
Not definitive, but I watched the '99 race before Bathurst and there was compulsory stops even then.
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Old 16 Oct 2019, 23:48 (Ref:3935078)   #509
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So after 7 years of being told how new manufacturers entering was the future of the series and needing to look beyond ford vs Holden...... we go into 2020 with just ford and Holden on the grid

Confirms COTF as a complete failure?
It seems that way.


Farewell!

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How many of those new manufacturers stuck round?
Indeed.

If you are an importer (which they all are now) there is no way in heck you pick Supercars over TCR. TCR is just a so much more cost effective version of touring car racing, and hopefully TCR's media profile will build over the years.

If you are a Renault, Honda or Peugeot for example, you don't sell a car with a V8 engine, but you do sell a hot hatchback. Why would you pick Supercars over TCR?
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 00:07 (Ref:3935081)   #510
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Why would you pick Supercars over TCR?
More than 100 people watch Supercars?
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 01:16 (Ref:3935090)   #511
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Better ROI putting your name on a footy jersey.
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 02:12 (Ref:3935092)   #512
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How I miss the Australian newspaper listing how many minutes each car featured on the Bathurst telecast and how much that equated to buying that air time.
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 05:07 (Ref:3935100)   #513
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More than 100 people watch Supercars?
I see. But don't you suppose the investment asked by Supercars to develop the prerequiste V6 twin-turbo Honda Accord (as Realtime Racing did for the more lucrative USA market from Acura TSX below) is excessive...




V6 twin turbo TLX drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYLcfZY8L0I

When compared to the far more reasonable cost of purchasing some ready-designed works vehicles from Honda gurus JAS Motorsport (be they NSX GT3 or Civic TCR)?

Is it not logical that Honda Australia (and other importers) therefore vote with their marketing budget to choose the (far) more cost effective category?




The cost of entering Supercars is not that much of a problem if there is a suitable ROI, but the return on investment of Supercars is seemingly rather unsatisfactory too... If it was a suitably attractive commercial proposition surely many of the importers that sell vehicles in Australia would be banging on the door to enter the Supercars series!?

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 17 Oct 2019 at 05:13.
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 05:22 (Ref:3935101)   #514
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Better ROI putting your name on a footy jersey.
This is certainly true. Why would you risk spending upwards of 3 or 4m AUD to enter a turbocharged Skoda Superb in the Supercars series with no guarantee of winning championship or Bathurst, when the ROI of putting a Skoda logo on a football jersey is far superior.





It is a travesty that the glorious green and white colours of Skoda are unlikely to grace a Supercar in the near future.

Who is a Skoda enthusiast hanging on the fence at a Supercars meeting supposed to cheer on!?

They could, I suppose, cheer on their Volkswagen or Audi stablemates -- but they aren't in the darn Supercars series either...




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Old 17 Oct 2019, 05:40 (Ref:3935102)   #515
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This is certainly true. Why would you risk spending upwards of 3 or 4m AUD to enter a turbocharged Skoda Superb in the Supercars series with no guarantee of winning championship or Bathurst, when the ROI of putting a Skoda logo on a football jersey is far superior.





It is a travesty that the glorious green and white colours of Skoda are unlikely to grace a Supercar in the near future.

Who is a Skoda enthusiast hanging on the fence at a Supercars meeting supposed to cheer on!?

They could, I suppose, cheer on their Volkswagen or Audi stablemates -- but they aren't in the darn Supercars series either...
But is it like for like? Not that I watch any of the football codes but to take your example of the rugby team shown is it likely that the logo on the jersey has any resonance with supporters after the deal ends?

Don't (good) deals in motorsport last longer and offer more engagement with supporters based around the fact that the manufacturer (or supplier) usually has product engaged in the process and not just money? Or atleast has more on the line than a logo on a jumper.

I remember the Skodas that used to run in the WRC over here in West Aus and thing well of them for having a go, despite them not being ultimately succesful. Do I have that view of them sponsoring a jumper of a rugby league team. Well no.
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 06:08 (Ref:3935104)   #516
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Sure, but compulsory pit stops were in place long before that (you didn't mention how many in your post).

Now that you have, it may be possible for that number to be reduced although from memory part of the reason to go to 7 was the smaller tanks on COTF and E85 not having the same range as the unleaded used previously (although I may be a little out on what happened in which year).
E85 was introduced in 2009.

7 CPS for Bathurst 2013
https://www.speedcafe.com/2013/09/29...bathurst-1000/
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 10:25 (Ref:3935144)   #517
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SO SURELY Andre will run the Kelly second car ??????
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 10:44 (Ref:3935149)   #518
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The cost of entering Supercars is not that much of a problem if there is a suitable ROI, but the return on investment of Supercars is seemingly rather unsatisfactory too... If it was a suitably attractive commercial proposition surely many of the importers that sell vehicles in Australia would be banging on the door to enter the Supercars series!?
The flaw in your argument is that none of the manufactures are doing anything in TCR here either, Honda gave Wall racing a Snickers and a can of Coke, and Wall racing put it on there because it looks better than pasting ARG down the side.

Renault upped their commitment to a sausage roll and a Dare Ice Coffee.

Subaru are probably the only real manufacturer involved, with an actual factory affiliated driver, but their car is so bad not even the Kelly's will run it...
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 11:03 (Ref:3935153)   #519
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The flaw in your argument is that none of the manufactures are doing anything in TCR here either
All very well, so how do Supercars solve their lack of manufacturer problem then?

It is another on the list with their lack of sponsors problem and lack of entries problem...
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 11:17 (Ref:3935156)   #520
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Better ROI putting your name on a footy jersey.
Possibly better ROI but a far riskier proposition with the never ending stream of sex, alcohol and drug scandals.
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Old 17 Oct 2019, 12:19 (Ref:3935168)   #521
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SO SURELY Andre will run the Kelly second car ??????
You would think it a no brainer really.... the guy has talent no doubts, but depending on what backing the team get/have got, they may have the need for a driver with backing.... I hope not for he surely deserves a seat over others. Having said that I will be sad to see Simona go.
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Old 18 Oct 2019, 03:38 (Ref:3935311)   #522
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Old 18 Oct 2019, 10:58 (Ref:3935393)   #523
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Any bets on whether it is Ms De Silvestro in the second Team18 car for next season?
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Old 18 Oct 2019, 11:05 (Ref:3935400)   #524
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Any bets on whether it is Ms De Silvestro in the second Team18 car for next season?
Geez that'll be an asset !

A mid back runner for me..................sorry !
GO get Scotty or Andre (if he was available)
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Old 18 Oct 2019, 11:09 (Ref:3935403)   #525
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So where too now for:

Mr Boost
Mr Stanaway
Mr Golding
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