The Death Of F1

Nintendo · 25 Sep 2005, 17:10 (Ref:1416059)

Jordan, the only team with any personality, is going.
Sauber, the leading independent (cough) team is going,
Minardi, the permanent likeable minnows are going.

Now it's all corporations. Williams only remain. Oh dear.

What can be done to stop this in F1?

P.Cummins · 25 Sep 2005, 17:16 (Ref:1416061)

Well MidLand, who will take over from Jordon, will also be an independant. As will Red Bull's second team if they do plan to take over Minardi with it. Its the personalities that are the bigger loss.

The sport needs to be made easier to get into etc but its a hard task to ask the FIA to do.

gttouring · 25 Sep 2005, 19:20 (Ref:1416124)

FIA, Bernie Eccelstone is the death, he is as double sided as anysword...making F1 the commercial success and simultaneously making it unreachable for most comers...except the manufacterers

Nintendo · 25 Sep 2005, 19:41 (Ref:1416155)

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.Cummins

Well MidLand, who will take over from Jordon, will also be an independant. As will Red Bull's second team if they do plan to take over Minardi with it. Its the personalities that are the bigger loss.

The sport needs to be made easier to get into etc but its a hard task to ask the FIA to do.

Hm. Midland is a consortium headed by the CORPORATION run by Alex Shnaider, which means it isn't independent (not just from a manufacturer's stand point),
Red Bull is a CORPORATION also. and BMW now owns Sauber. Nuff said.

Knowlesy · 25 Sep 2005, 19:44 (Ref:1416159)

With the loss of these teams, I really don't feel F1 is stumbling, although it's not nice to lose teams like those.

We should get a mini influx of new teams over the next decade I reckon, if all goes to plan.

Inigo Montoya · 25 Sep 2005, 20:40 (Ref:1416236)

Rather than seeing it as the death of F1, I see it as the dawn of a new era. Maybe the big money these new guys come with will see them put together more competative teams.

BootsOntheSide · 25 Sep 2005, 20:59 (Ref:1416267)

It's a shame to lose these indie teams, but at least we will still have a strong 20-car grid next year, and probably the teams will be closer together than ever before. And the teams and brands can build up their own personalities in time.

**Adam43** · 25 Sep 2005, 21:52 (Ref:1416307)

A great race. A new world champion. And this thread? Why today? Haven't we got better things to discuss? I do see that the thread starter thinks this too as he started the Alonso World Champion thread!

but while we are on similar things Hesketh Racing, who were Jordan except more so, went ages ago. F1 is still alive.

McLaren3gr · 25 Sep 2005, 23:20 (Ref:1416401)

The death of F1 is not showned by the loss of Jordan and Minardi but by the fact that year by year what we see is cars going round and round and not drivers driving the cars ...

Alwaysfirst · 25 Sep 2005, 23:40 (Ref:1416414)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

A great race. A new world champion.

Congrats to Alonso but it can hardly be described as a great race-it was truly rubbish. Even fewer good overtaking moves than normal. I don't know what James Allen was watching but it wasn't the one that I was. I am sad to be missing the small inde teams but if more big money teams brings closer racing and better competition than now then I am all for it.

Stargazer7 · 26 Sep 2005, 02:07 (Ref:1416463)

I feel sorry for the small, indie teams too, but how can we characterize a multi - billion dollar corporation DEAD? I think we have very much to see in the upcoming years, or even decades...

PS. Congratulations to F. Alosno and to the greek national basketball team (my country!!) for winning the european cup!

Mystery · 26 Sep 2005, 08:08 (Ref:1416582)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

A great race. A new world champion. And this thread? Why today? Haven't we got better things to discuss? I do see that the thread starter thinks this too as he started the Alonso World Champion thread!

but while we are on similar things Hesketh Racing, who were Jordan except more so, went ages ago. F1 is still alive.

A great race????!!!! Are you kidding Adam? I stopped watching around half way because of the distinct lack of action after the first half dozen laps or so. Congrats to Alonso and all that, but sadly the title of this thread is spot on as far as I'm concerned. No indie teams, no overtaking and no will from the ruling body to improve the show. I won't bother next year.

**John Turner** · 26 Sep 2005, 08:41 (Ref:1416605)

This thread, Mystery, was about whether the loss of independant teams would be the death of racing, not the separate issue about the lack of overtaking which has been discussed at great length in the motor racing media and other 10 Tenths threads for some years. In any event whilst I am no fan of the FIA, I thought that they were trying to address it.

In response to the thread title, there is no likelihood that the loss of these independants is the deathknell of F1, any more than the loss of true independant drivers in F1 (those that prepared their cars with one mechanic and trailered them around Europe!) did in the early 1960's. It is sad to lose these teams, and not all changes are for the better, but F1 is a colossus, like an oil tanker at sea. It is not going to be stopped by the loss of a few non essential components. There are a number of other issues that might mortally wound it (again discussed elsewhere on 10-Tenths) but this is not one!

**Adam43** · 26 Sep 2005, 08:49 (Ref:1416610)

I suggest that you don't watch F1 anymore, at all.

You don't have a prayer of enjoying it.

Did you see the move Michael pulled on Fisi, the move Kimi did on Alonso, the move Montoya pulled on Fisi? After that there were only a few more moves becasue the fastest people had got to the front! And then the flat out battle (until the last few laps) between Kimi and Juan Pablo? And that is ignoring the underlying situation that we were seeing a new world champion being crowned. Sorry for being off topic, but sometimes it seems we are negative for the sake of it.

Back to topic. Teams like Jordan, almost by definition, aren't meant to be around forever. If they are around forever then they lose part of their fun element and become stayed and part of the establishment. Take my previous example of Hesketh - if they were still around now they would be with the same verve they had before.

MikeHoyer · 26 Sep 2005, 10:07 (Ref:1416687)

I'm not too bothered about Jordan to be honest, they died a long time ago in my opinion, and have just been hanging around making up the grid for a couple of years. There's no sense of that "atmosphere" that they had in the late 90's.

Menelaos · 26 Sep 2005, 10:29 (Ref:1416712)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nintendo

Jordan, the only team with any personality, is going.
Sauber, the leading independent (cough) team is going,
Minardi, the permanent likeable minnows are going.

Now it's all corporations. Williams only remain. Oh dear.

What can be done to stop this in F1?

Everyone keeps saying that. I DON'T CARE. The three worst teams are going, I'm happy for it. Finally we'll have some real competition!

ASCII Man · 26 Sep 2005, 10:47 (Ref:1416730)

A lot of people do care, but that's not really important, isn't it?
Although I do agree with MikeHoyer that Jordan haven't been what they used to be the last couple years, I'd go as far as the past 5 years after Eddie dumped Double H, ****ed off DHL/Deutsche Post and with that basically signed his team's death warrant...

But I for one will miss Minardi, even though they were the perennial backmarkers, they always did put a lot of heart, soul and the cliché blood, sweat and tears in it, also with the budget that they had for all those years they achieved some pretty respectable results from time to time. I find people who slag off Minardi because of their so-called inability to compete with the factory teams and are happy to see the backs of them to be severely short-sighted and lacking basic emotive qualities...

Real competition, huh?
I'd rather have small teams with soul and passion for the sport than big heartless automotive corporations who only see F1 as a big PR opportunity to promote their cars, thank you.

Hein · 26 Sep 2005, 10:48 (Ref:1416732)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menelaos

Everyone keeps saying that. I DON'T CARE. The three worst teams are going, I'm happy for it. Finally we'll have some real competition!

That is a bit harsh don't you think? I am sad to lose them, but like you mentioned - We will have more competitive teams next year (and that can only be good for the sport).

Lets hope next year will be a cracker!

Stargazer7 · 26 Sep 2005, 11:00 (Ref:1416740)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menelaos

Everyone keeps saying that. I DON'T CARE. The three worst teams are going, I'm happy for it. Finally we'll have some real competition!

I would not be so cynic. I am happy for having a more competitive grid (hopefully) next year, but people are not sad for losing these teams themselves,but what they represent. You may call me romantic, but its the fight between indepenent spirit and "calculative risk" that inspires people.
And lets get serious, who do you prefer??

cybersdorf · 26 Sep 2005, 11:06 (Ref:1416752)

F1 hasn't seen real competition in a decade. Let it die. If shutting it down for a year is what it takes to reinvent it into a proper racing series again - a worthy World Championship - then so be it.

Skam85 · 26 Sep 2005, 11:47 (Ref:1416805)

I believe this year was a real World Championship.

CamF1 · 26 Sep 2005, 15:35 (Ref:1416997)

It isn't the death of F1, just someone's ideal of 'F1' dying.

P.Cummins · 26 Sep 2005, 15:52 (Ref:1417015)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nintendo

Hm. Midland is a consortium headed by the CORPORATION run by Alex Shnaider, which means it isn't independent (not just from a manufacturer's stand point),
Red Bull is a CORPORATION also. and BMW now owns Sauber. Nuff said.

So if any team is run by a manufacturer or a corporation (or backed by), they are not an independant.
I don't mean to stray off-topic here, but Team Dynamics in the BTCC are backed by "Halfords" (a CORPORATION, if you want) but they are an independant team.

JeremySmith · 26 Sep 2005, 16:11 (Ref:1417046)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

A lot of people do care, but that's not really important, isn't it?
Although I do agree with MikeHoyer that Jordan haven't been what they used to be the last couple years, I'd go as far as the past 5 years after Eddie dumped Double H, ****ed off DHL/Deutsche Post and with that basically signed his team's death warrant...

But I for one will miss Minardi, even though they were the perennial backmarkers, they always did put a lot of heart, soul and the cliché blood, sweat and tears in it, also with the budget that they had for all those years they achieved some pretty respectable results from time to time. I find people who slag off Minardi because of their so-called inability to compete with the factory teams and are happy to see the backs of them to be severely short-sighted and lacking basic emotive qualities...

Real competition, huh?
I'd rather have small teams with soul and passion for the sport than big heartless automotive corporations who only see F1 as a big PR opportunity to promote their cars, thank you.

I agree whole heartily with the sentiment in your post. However ASCII, how will the small teams like Minardi and Jordan *ever* compete with the likes of McLaren, Ferrari, Toyota if their is not a huge injection of *cash* to make these teams more competitive? The big spenders will always be at the front and the Minardi's of the world will allways struggle. I don't want to see F1 become the GM of racing but I don't see the choice, unless the FIA can stipulate how much the teams are allowed to spend each year.

ASCII Man · 26 Sep 2005, 17:40 (Ref:1417152)

F1 could try a budget cap, much like they use in the NFL, although they have a salary cap implemented I can see something like it work in F1,... or maybe not.

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