[Official] German Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[Greem]

Both Alfa Romeo cars have been given a post-race 30s penalty for an infringement at the start to do with 'clutch torque application' (I think that's what the ruling said).

That puts Hamilton up to 9th, and the Williams of Kubica scores the first points for both driver and team since 1979.

[midgetman]

The ruling says they were given a penalty because the way the clutches were mapped gave them an advantage at the start. WTAF? What's the problem?

Ah wait, is it a traction control thing?

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[Adam43]

Originally Posted by midgetman

The ruling says they were given a penalty because the way the clutches were mapped gave them an advantage at the start. WTAF? I thought this was was an engineering formula what's the problem?

And others WTAF and think it is a drivers championship.

And this is why F1 can't win. They can never do right. it is wrong for everyone.

[Aysedasi]

Absolutely mad. I only watched the highlights. I feel positively giddy trying to work out just what I watched today..... Great stuff.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Ah wait, is it a traction control thing?

It would seem so, yes. Whatever the detail it has been deemed to breach the "driver aids" rules.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Greem

Both Alfa Romeo cars have been given a post-race 30s penalty for an infringement at the start to do with 'clutch torque application' (I think that's what the ruling said).

That puts Hamilton up to 9th, and the Williams of Kubica scores the first points for both driver and team since 1979.

Since 1979?

[Aysedasi]

Yeah. None of the others counted.......

[FIRE]

Entertaining race.

[GT6]

Well F1 does it again after a great race they change the result and make the sport look silly again, but good for williams to finally get a point, if they had given some more penalties for something else we could have seen both williams in the points.

[Adam43]

I agree, they should have ignored it. I thought that back in the day when Tyrell added lead weight to top up the fluids. Completely mad to have a penalty just because something was outside the rules. Petty.

[Razzzor]

Will Gasly last the year at RB? I was watching him during the race a bit and he was pretty bad. RB can't afford to be wasting time with someone barely managing to stay in the top 10 while Max is out front pulling away at seconds per lap.



But is Albon ready for the step up yet?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Do they purposely segregate the Dutch fans?

Very funny race thread.

[Skam85]

Right up there with Brazil 2003 for me in favourite races.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Very funny race thread.

Well easy to do that they are very obvious.

[VIVA GT]

I didn't get chance to watch the highlights 'live' last night, and was too tired to get up early today to watch them before coming to work so thanks to all of your comments in this thread, I feel like I have seen the race.
Just one thing: am I the only person who realises that Mercedes have suffed up on purpose so that Max gets another win thereby stopping him from invoking the break clause in his contract & going to Ferrari?

[crmalcolm]

I'm probably swimming against the tide here, but I honestly didn't enjoy the race that much. Too much of what happened was down to luck and misfortune as opposed to good decisions, clever tactics or greater skill than a competitor.
Hamilton described it best as being like snakes and ladders. Every change in fortune came about from an apparent roll of the dice, and was outside of teams' and drivers' control which is not what I want from an F1 race.

Both Mercs made the same T1 error, but only one of them finished the race - luck, not skill.

The only team/driver combination close to getting it right on decision and tactics was Vettel/Ferrari, everything else could have been decided just as effectively by pulling names out of a hat - IMO, that is not racing.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm probably swimming against the tide here, but I honestly didn't enjoy the race that much. Too much of what happened was down to luck and misfortune as opposed to good decisions, clever tactics or greater skill than a competitor.
Hamilton described it best as being like snakes and ladders. Every change in fortune came about from an apparent roll of the dice, and was outside of teams' and drivers' control which is not what I want from an F1 race.

Both Mercs made the same T1 error, but only one of them finished the race - luck, not skill.

The only team/driver combination close to getting it right on decision and tactics was Vettel/Ferrari, everything else could have been decided just as effectively by pulling names out of a hat - IMO, that is not racing.

I see your point but in this kind of races it is down to pace, getting as many decisions right as possible and luck.


For instance Verstappen:

- The car and driver combo had the pace
- They had both bad luck being on the wet side of the grid (surprised no one else is also more annoyed about that).
- On the other hand their starting occasionally doesn't seem up to Mercedes and Ferrari standard.

- They made some good calls on strategy (pitting Verstappen without loosing position). Although they probably should've switched him to softs right away.
- They also made a bad one; putting him on mediums in such tricky conditions and with further rain likely.


What I actually like is there there were so many changes in conditions that it was not one event that determined the outcome. You had to make sure you made as many decisions right as possible. So sure there was an element of luck, but it was not just luck. Something which does happen when for instance there is just one SC and only a few profit from it.

[S griffin]

Having seen the highlights, it was hard to keep up with everything. Just wish I could have seen it live.

Merc really seemed to have thrown their organised ways out the window today. The pitstop was a disaster, like the Keystone Cops, something you would expect from Ferrari, but not them. And their decision not to pit under the SC for more inters like Max was curious. By contrast Vettel for once had a mistake free race coming through the field, his move on Sainz the pick of the bunch

Lewis gets a bit more luck with the Alfas getting penalised, and ironic that Williams get a point with Kubica, rather than Russell who's usually been ahead

Great to see Max winning and to see Kyvat up there as well too. And good drive from Stroll too, shows he deserves to be on the grid

[TrapezeArtist]

I will have to watch the C4 highlights again before I feel like I really understand all of what happened.

What happened to Gasly at the end? Something came up on the results screen indicating he and Albon were being investigated but no more has been said. And we didn't get to see any replays of other camera angles.

What happened to Leclerc's unsafe release? That looked like a clear-cut transgression. Forgotten about because he binned it? The incident does highlight a general problem in these circumstances; if more than half the field pit at the same time during a safety car period, the risk of an incident increases massively. Do we have to wait for serious injuries or worse before something is done?

My opinion on Gasly's future: he'll stay at Red Bull until the end of the year and then disappear to sports cars, Formula E or some other backwater. For the moment Red Bull don't have any other options. Albon is looking very good but needs more experience before moving up to the number one team. Kvyat has already been promoted/demoted once and I don't think they'll risk that mistake again. His Hockenheim result was a flash-in-the-pan than relied more on luck and strategy than driving skill (though anyone who could keep it on the black stuff for the full race distance was doing pretty well).

As for crmalcolm's comments about luck, it's true. But sometimes you can make your own luck, so I only partially agree.

Mercedes seemed to roll all their quota of pitstop cockups into one mega-disaster. They're not due another now until 2029.

[Taxi645]

Some further notes:


- On the Albon Gasly incident. I think Albon's move to the right was to late there, Gasly was already too close.
- Inters did seem to drop off quite quickly.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

What happened to Leclerc's unsafe release? That looked like a clear-cut transgression. Forgotten about because he binned it? The incident does highlight a general problem in these circumstances; if more than half the field pit at the same time during a safety car period, the risk of an incident increases massively. Do we have to wait for serious injuries or worse before something is done?

Ferrari were fined.

As to the second part of the question, what do you suggest could be done? Pit lanes are dangerous places, they can't really be sanitised much more than they are already. It is incumbent on the car controller (lollipop man, person with finger on the button etc) not to screw up. The drivers are completely blind from about 60 degrees from straight ahead and their mirrors are full of pit crew.

Personally I think having the lights in place on the boom is a problem as the person operating them isn't necessarily in the right position to see up the fast lane correctly, but that then places a human in front of the car with a board on a stick - and we've seen that go wrong many times over the years.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by marcel82

I wonder how Vettel found speed in the end? Most of the race he was stuck in eight, but suddenly he's like he's in a different racing class?

A safety car compressed the field being a major assistance, along with new tyres IIRC. But no denying he did well

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by E.B

A safety car compressed the field being a major assistance, along with new tyres IIRC. But no denying he did well

As well as being in a top 3 team car in what was by then a dry race.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Greem

Ferrari were fined.

As to the second part of the question, what do you suggest could be done? Pit lanes are dangerous places, they can't really be sanitised much more than they are already. It is incumbent on the car controller (lollipop man, person with finger on the button etc) not to screw up. The drivers are completely blind from about 60 degrees from straight ahead and their mirrors are full of pit crew.

Personally I think having the lights in place on the boom is a problem as the person operating them isn't necessarily in the right position to see up the fast lane correctly, but that then places a human in front of the car with a board on a stick - and we've seen that go wrong many times over the years.

If safety would be the ultimate goal we would have an automated system for pitlanes where side by side driving is not an option. Set a certain minimum distance into which to release the driver (including reaction time). If the car in pitlane is too close the light will stay red.



So sequence goes:

- cars stops, light is red
- When car is ready AND pit lane is free, light goes green (if either is not the case light stays red).

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Greem

Ferrari were fined.

As to the second part of the question, what do you suggest could be done? Pit lanes are dangerous places, they can't really be sanitised much more than they are already. It is incumbent on the car controller (lollipop man, person with finger on the button etc) not to screw up. The drivers are completely blind from about 60 degrees from straight ahead and their mirrors are full of pit crew.

Personally I think having the lights in place on the boom is a problem as the person operating them isn't necessarily in the right position to see up the fast lane correctly, but that then places a human in front of the car with a board on a stick - and we've seen that go wrong many times over the years.

Ferrari fined. I've just had a quick look and can't find the price of taking a chance on an unsafe release. I doubt it will put a big dent in the Ferrari budget though. A little less caviar in the hospitality sandwiches? That sends a seriously bad message for the future.

What do I suggest should be done? I'm thinking out loud here, so feel free to comment but please don't flame me. In general, I think the lights or lollipop work reasonably well in most circumstances, even if there are occasional issues. They don't work well when there are lots of cars in the pitlane at once. If a lollipop man or button-pusher was diligently holding back for safety, he could easily cost his driver 10 seconds, so he won't do it. Perhaps the solution is to close the pitlane during safety and virtual safety periods?

This has been done or perhaps just considered before, but that was in the days of refueling when it could cause competitors to run dry. If it was done now, it would just oblige drivers to run at reduced speed on less than optimum tyres. Immediately after the pitlane reopened there would be some extra pit activity but only for normal tyre strategy stops and not the wholesale dash to get a free stop. Any driver who needed a stop due to damage would be seriously disadvantaged, but that would only be a small increment on the disadvantage they would suffer anyway due to the damage. I think that might be a reasonable price to pay in order to avoid an accident of near-Lemans-55 proportions.

In summary, pitlane closure would take safety car opportunities out of the team's strategy. It would mean that a driver who stopped for a routine tyre change just before a safety car would not suffer a disadvantage relative to another driver who lucked in on a safety car a few minutes later.