[Official] British Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 4

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

I'd rather have it dull rather than someone die because the tyres are crap.

Who died?

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

I'd rather have it dull rather than someone die because the tyres are crap.

That really is a nonsense statement. 19 cars competed, 3 cars (two of which presumably had a very similar suspension set-up, and which were certainly running harder than anyone else) had a front-left tyre deflate - from as yet undiagnosed causes - could be tyre construction, could be debris. Possibly one other had a rear-right tyre go - again no diagnosis. So 15 cars didn't have a tyre issue beyond normal wear on a known abrasive and high-speed circuit. And yet you make the sweeping assessment of the tyres as "crap". My Freelander had a left-front Michelin deflate the other week - does that mean Michelin are crap?

[chillibowl]

What were lap times like immediately before the deflations?

Beyond the teams knowing the basic operating window of the tires, beyond any telemetry or feedback teams typically recieve from the cars and drivers... I would imagine they were already noticing the tires becoming less effective well before they failed no?

[steve_r]

How bad was Vettel? Got overtaken by an Alpha Tauri on pure pace. Was on the back foot all weekend it seemed, whilst LeClerc dragged the car onto the podium yet again.

I've never been a fan of him, but it's sad to see. It's like watching an old over-the-hill former world champion heavyweight boxer get beaten up in a circus fight. I genuinely hope that he either rediscovers his mojo, or retires. But continuing like this, on the back of nearly 2 years of regular silly mistakes and failures - it's not what anyone wants to see.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

What were lap times like immediately before the deflations?

Beyond the teams knowing the basic operating window of the tires, beyond any telemetry or feedback teams typically recieve from the cars and drivers... I would imagine they were already noticing the tires becoming less effective well before they failed no?

It appears that Bottas and Hamilton had dropped pace - but that could have been for many other reasons being out front.
Sainz Jr was improving times immediately prior to the failure.
Verstappen (as a comparison) was consistent prior to his pit-in lap. His times had gradually improved throughout the whole stint.

Lap	Time(s)
Hamilton
40	89.282
41	89.354
42	89.269
43	89.525
44	89.364
45	89.238
46	89.432
47	89.455
48	89.821
49	90.12
50	91.081
51	92.185
Bottas
40	89.892
41	89.265
42	89.296
43	89.723
44	89.78
45	89.739
46	90.164
47	90.271
48	91.797
49	91.051
Sainz Jr
40	90.38
41	90.185
42	90.236
43	90.619
44	90.4
45	90.012
46	90.363
47	89.948
48	90.098
49	90.045
50	90.287
Verstappen
40	89.985
41	89.07
42	89.389
43	89.819
44	89.671
45	89.355
46	90.046
47	89.728
48	89.572
49	89.675
50	91.697

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

I'd rather have it dull rather than someone die because the tyres are crap.

The likelihood of dying is a possibility, however with the level of safety these days I think it is quite remote.

[The Fat Clerk]

Be interesting to hear what the Risk Assessors think, particularly with regard to 'Corporate Manslaughter'.

The world in which we live.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It appears that Bottas and Hamilton had dropped pace - but that could have been for many other reasons being out front.
Sainz Jr was improving times immediately prior to the failure.
Verstappen (as a comparison) was consistent prior to his pit-in lap. His times had gradually improved throughout the whole stint.

Wow. Thank you for that and so quick.

While im not overly critical of Pirelli here (teams know this risk was there), but those lap times would suggest the failures came with little warning...other then they were old of course

Thats somewhere between frustrating and dangerous.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Wow. Thank you for that and so quick.

While im not overly critical of Pirelli here (teams know this risk was there), but those lap times would suggest the failures came with little warning...other then they were old of course

Thats somewhere between frustrating and dangerous.

I don't think they were without warning. From the on-boards, each failure seemed to be preceded by a period of increasingly intense vibrations through the steering wheel.

There may have been little warning in terms of a progressive failure that the teams could act against, but there was a warning to the driver that something was about to go wrong soon, so that they had the chance to scrub speed and not be dangerous.

A lot of factors contributed to the failures, which are covered in detail here.

Factors included:
'Last year, with the same tyres, one-stop only became feasible as the race unfolded, allowing the expected two-stop to be changed to the faster one.'
'Lap 13 Safety Car [...] brought everyone in around 10 laps earlier than planned, '
'This year’s Mercedes was an average of around 10km/h quicker than last year’s at the apex of the fast corners. '
'Others were beginning to feel vibrations from the left-front with around 10 laps still to go and were backing off in response.'
'four laps from home, Raikkonen’s wing [...] left carbon fibre shards scattered across the track.'
'Red Bull [...] noted that the old tyres which came off were ‘covered with about 50 cuts’. '

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Wow. Thank you for that and so quick.

While im not overly critical of Pirelli here (teams know this risk was there), but those lap times would suggest the failures came with little warning...other then they were old of course

Thats somewhere between frustrating and dangerous.

A serious question. What should the warning be? Lap times dropping? Even if so, don't you have to look at the entire picture? I don't know a great deal about racing tires, but I think road tires have a base compound the makes up the carcass and then a different layer (and compound) for the tread. With the compound for the carcass probably is not optimized for grip. Are race tires similar?

In late 2018 (based upon feedback), Pirelli tested out tires with thinner tread. The goal was to reduce blistering. This was done in a few races in 2018 and then they were supposed to go to the new design in 2019 (I can't remember, but I assume they did). I also assume that is what is used for 2020.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...y-race-in-2019

Interesting quote from that 2018 article about the thinner tires...

One drawback to a thinner tyre is it is more prone to physical wear but Pirelli hopes this will prevent the tyres from retaining performance even as the tread is worn out, meaning drivers can't eke out long stints at a low pace, which should encourage teams to change tyres more frequently.

This says that they should see a performance drop. I don't know if that is because they are wearing though the primary compound faster (if my tire construction assumptions are correct).

Regardless, I think it was clear during the race they they were worried about the tire performance. I think Bottas had a significant blister going on. I broadly think that people can't claim there were no warnings that the tires were badly worn.

Richard

[chillibowl]

I dont know what an appropriate warning would be.

A more predictable loss of lap times? A sensor/heat warning (no idea if that is possible).

As i said, i do think the teams knew they were at the margins so they made a tactical choice...only so much you can do when both teams and fans expect to see something operate at the limit.

[broadrun96]

Multiple radio communication between Bottas, Lewis and the pits about vibration, Lando and his pit for the same concern and blisters, and the TV shots of a full blistered line around Bottas's tire prior to deflation. Think there was plenty of warning and the two MB were slowing pace for just that reason.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Multiple radio communication between Bottas, Lewis and the pits about vibration, Lando and his pit for the same concern and blisters, and the TV shots of a full blistered line around Bottas's tire prior to deflation. Think there was plenty of warning and the two MB were slowing pace for just that reason.

I broadly agree.

I think this is attributed to Senna...

Being a racing driver means you are racing with other people and if you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing.

While that is targeting the drivers, it can apply to the teams as well. The "gap" was to take a risk and run tires long even with signs that there was a risk. So Mercedes stuffed the cars into a gap, it barely worked for one and not for the other. Red Bull mad a slightly different call and it still generally worked for them as well.

My vote... "Racing Incident" and with no real blame to be placed.

I also think one reason why Max was so magnanimous about how it played out is because he knew the tires were not good. In the post race interview, he talks about how he was complaining to the team that the right front didn't look good. And that was prior to Bottas going out.

Richard

[steve nielsen]

So Kvyat's crash was also a flat tyre

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Be interesting to hear what the Risk Assessors think, particularly with regard to 'Corporate Manslaughter'.

The world in which we live.

Is it really? I can think of no example of this. I suppose Italy made a problem for Williams for a bit after a Senna. Really is the exception.

What Albon did was far more dangerous, by this logic.

The risks were still acceptable. Although maybe Hamilton, Bottas and Mercedes would be charged with manslaughter too?

If you are going to deal in absolutes as you’ve forced this then there are only really a couple of things to conclude. You assume I am baying for blood in my sport. And Motorsport should just be stopped.

The risk was acceptable, even in this world we live in.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I dont know what an appropriate warning would be.

A more predictable loss of lap times? A sensor/heat warning (no idea if that is possible).

Bits of your tyre falling off could be used as a warning?

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Is it really? I can think of no example of this. I suppose Italy made a problem for Williams for a bit after a Senna. Really is the exception.

What Albon did was far more dangerous, by this logic.

The risks were still acceptable. Although maybe Hamilton, Bottas and Mercedes would be charged with manslaughter too?

If you are going to deal in absolutes as you’ve forced this then there are only really a couple of things to conclude. You assume I am baying for blood in my sport. And Motorsport should just be stopped.

The risk was acceptable, even in this world we live in.

An incident at Birmingham Wheels last year comes to mind.

I certainly don't want motorsport to stop, I've been physically involved in it from the early 70's but sometimes we need to do a reality check and not be blinded.

[S griffin]

It’s not the first time something like this has happened here. No I’m not 2013, but 2017 when both Ferraris tyres failed in the closing stages

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Similar in some ways, an incident at Birmingham Wheels last year comes to mind.

I certainly don't want motorsport to stop, I've been physically involved in it from the early 70's but sometimes we need to do a reality check and not be blinded.

You have to judge the level of risk and it’s acceptability. I rate what happened at Silverstone as an acceptable level. If that isn’t then I think there are more things that happen most weekends that are worse.

I don’t think it deserved such a drama. But I’ve only been involved since the ‘90s.

Sorry. I thought I was reasonable, just trying to avoid such extremes in the conversation.

[broadrun96]

And it's not like the rules that caught Kimi out at back McLaren. They could STOP and get a new set of tires. The previous rules meant Kimi could not pit with those flat spots and his car came to pieces with suspension failure. Then maybe you could argue the rules posed an unnecessary risk as they couldn't make a safety repair everyone could see without getting DQ'd.

They almost all chose to keep running. Notice how Red Bull did stop in reaction to something happening ahead of them. And maybe 10, for ease of math and over counting I think we can agree 4 but a few more maybe as well were low or damaged, tires let go over the weekend, that's not 10 of 20. That's 10 of HUNDREDS of tires used. And those 3 at the end of the race failed after being used at the max the constructor thought they would last with indications they weren't at their best. This wasn't tires coming apart at speed without warning at Indy. There were signs on camera and the radio. The teams felt they could make it work and they would last. Teams do the same with fuel load and consumable parts. Sometimes you 3 wheel and win, sometimes you miss the points completely when it fails too early.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

So Kvyat's crash was also a flat tyre

Thanks Steve, great get.

Frightening to see it like that, Kvyat had no chance.

[Adam43]

Yeah. Makes more sense than a mistake in that corner or an F1 car. Not a lot you can do about it.

I’ve had a moment in that corner. Although not the tyre’s fault

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Yeah. Makes more sense than a mistake in that corner or an F1 car. Not a lot you can do about it.

I’ve had a moment in that corner. Although not the tyre’s fault

Doubt your car has the down force of Kvyat's though, you still had a corner to deal with?
Must have got the old heart going a bit though!

[Adam43]

No downforce at all (see avatar). So it is a bit of a corner. I caught it - take that Kvyat - but it was more by luck than judgement and there was a definite moment where I thought I was going to look like a right Charlie. It was first session of the day, cold and, in attempt to sound like an F1 driver, the tyres weren’t up to temperature

From a Pirelli perspective that puncture is one I’d be more worried about.

Next year there are new 18 inch wheels and tyres. So things will probably change again. What have they been asked to do?

Actually, is it next year, or the year after, now everything is frozen?

[broadrun96]

Hope they delay the 18s, thought the teams said everything in the suspension had to be replaced for them?