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Old 25 Oct 2020, 18:44 (Ref:4012951)   #301
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Can't see Albon lasting many more races with form like that
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Old 25 Oct 2020, 21:46 (Ref:4013020)   #302
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I do feel sorry for him, it's not an easy task when you've got someone like Max as a teammate, but at the end of the day he has no more excuses. He is on borrowed time now
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 01:37 (Ref:4013056)   #303
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George Russell
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 01:42 (Ref:4013059)   #304
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I hope Mr Russell finds a seat somewhere. I am sure he will fit in somewhere, even if it is only a reserve driver role. He is that good, star of the future. Just needs to continue putting him all his effort in the meantime
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 06:18 (Ref:4013079)   #305
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You could look at it the other way. Who with any sense would want to go as Verstappen's team mate? He/RB/Marko have destroyed a number of careers now with only Gasly getting a decent comeback.



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Old 26 Oct 2020, 07:16 (Ref:4013098)   #306
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You could look at it the other way. Who with any sense would want to go as Verstappen's team mate? He/RB/Marko have destroyed a number of careers now with only Gasly getting a decent comeback.



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Gasly could not handle the pressure, it was not Max or Marko that already crashed the RB15 twice in testing, it was Gasly himself
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 07:21 (Ref:4013099)   #307
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Gasly could not handle the pressure, it was not Max or Marko that already crashed the RB15 twice in testing, it was Gasly himself

Gasly was axed too soon I believe (and said so last year). Yes, he was down on confidence, but like this year the Red Bull was very unstable at the start of last season. At the end of the season (like this year) the car's aerodynamics were stabilizing. Had Gasly been giving more time I think his skill and resilience would've been allowed to be shown.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 08:01 (Ref:4013109)   #308
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That pressure is entirely down to the management. Gasly crashed twice in pre-season, not great, but the way Horner moaned on about it was pretty pathetic in all honesty. You are supposed to lift your driver up at these moments.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 08:15 (Ref:4013116)   #309
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That pressure is entirely down to the management. Gasly crashed twice in pre-season, not great, but the way Horner moaned on about it was pretty pathetic in all honesty. You are supposed to lift your driver up at these moments.

Red Bull has a pretty poor record of handling their 2nd drivers. The list becomes pretty long.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 09:17 (Ref:4013127)   #310
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Gasly could not handle the pressure, it was not Max or Marko that already crashed the RB15 twice in testing, it was Gasly himself
My point exactly. Why would you want to have that pressure exerted on you if you're a comparative rookie looking for the next step? After all, one could argue that it sent Seb scurrying to Ferrari after Danny Ric became the new favourite.

I don't think Albon will survive because they do need a better #2 driver. There's good finishing positions going begging.

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Old 26 Oct 2020, 09:59 (Ref:4013134)   #311
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My point exactly. Why would you want to have that pressure exerted on you if you're a comparative rookie looking for the next step? After all, one could argue that it sent Seb scurrying to Ferrari after Danny Ric became the new favourite.

I don't think Albon will survive because they do need a better #2 driver. There's good finishing positions going begging.

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In a topteam there is ALWAYS pressure, because results are what they expect of you, that's not just unique to Red Bull.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 10:12 (Ref:4013138)   #312
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In a topteam there is ALWAYS pressure, because results are what they expect of you, that's not just unique to Red Bull.
There's pressure, such as that applied to Bottas and there's expectations such as that applied by Red Bull to Albon. Think back to when the regs were a bit more open and you had Vettel and Webber together. Both were pretty good at bagging points and Webber kept Vettel relatively honest.

Now the regs are much less free the cars have to be designed to suit a certain driving style; and here, I suggest the Merc suits Hamilton more than Bottas (witness tyre management). Likewise I think the Red Bulls are designed around Max and his more aggressive style and I propose this to be Dani Ric's issue with the car.

As such Red Bull are unlikely to get a second driver to come anywhere near Max unless they change (unlikely) thus I'm not sure who would take the seat knowing how a second driver is treated.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 10:20 (Ref:4013139)   #313
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TBH i think its got to the point where Alex needs to go.

If i were Red Bull, id put Alex next to Gasly in Torro Rosso and assess which is better, then put Hulk or Perez in at Red Bull to work out if its an inexpereinced driver issue or a car issue, maybe that experience will help sort out any car instabilities they may have.
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 11:02 (Ref:4013152)   #314
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TBH i think its got to the point where Alex needs to go.

If i were Red Bull, id put Alex next to Gasly in Torro Rosso and assess which is better, then put Hulk or Perez in at Red Bull to work out if its an inexpereinced driver issue or a car issue, maybe that experience will help sort out any car instabilities they may have.
Makes sense to me. Also means that Kvyat can be pensioned off at last....
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 13:22 (Ref:4013191)   #315
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While that might make sense, it's been confirmed that Tsunoda will get the Alpha Tauri drive as long as he gets the super licence points. Considering he's 3rd in the championship, and the number of points needed for a licence has been reduced, he's basically 100% to get the drive.
So for Albon, it seems the be Red Bull or nothing (unless there's any 'Gasly to Renault' shenanigans).
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 15:33 (Ref:4013231)   #316
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In a topteam there is ALWAYS pressure, because results are what they expect of you, that's not just unique to Red Bull.
I think we're actually agreeing while managing to look like we're disagreeing. Yes you're right, maybe the words I should have used were "unique challenges" rather than "pressure".

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Old 26 Oct 2020, 21:45 (Ref:4013285)   #317
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I think we're actually agreeing while managing to look like we're disagreeing. Yes you're right, maybe the words I should have used were "unique challenges" rather than "pressure".

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He's up against one of the best drivers, but so is Bottas , who is also in a team focussed on his teammate, but Bottas has never been lapped by Hamilton and usualy is right behind him
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Old 26 Oct 2020, 22:57 (Ref:4013298)   #318
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I think it isn't just that the team is focused on the team mate, or that the team mate (be it Hamilton or Verstappen) are a class above, but there is also a big difference between the drivers they hire.


Bottas was already a seasoned pro by the time he got the Mercedes drive, whereas Red Bull have been choosing inexperienced drivers.
Gasly, Albon, Kvyat didn't have that base of years of ups and downs at the top level, with the extra media glare etc. They didn't have anything mentally to draw on when they started to struggle. Quite simply, none of them seemed to know how to handle it, and they crumbled.
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Old 27 Oct 2020, 02:36 (Ref:4013320)   #319
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I think it isn't just that the team is focused on the team mate, or that the team mate (be it Hamilton or Verstappen) are a class above, but there is also a big difference between the drivers they hire.


Bottas was already a seasoned pro by the time he got the Mercedes drive, whereas Red Bull have been choosing inexperienced drivers.
Gasly, Albon, Kvyat didn't have that base of years of ups and downs at the top level, with the extra media glare etc. They didn't have anything mentally to draw on when they started to struggle. Quite simply, none of them seemed to know how to handle it, and they crumbled.
You are however forgetting Vettel, Ricciardo and Max who all developed just fine.
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Old 27 Oct 2020, 11:05 (Ref:4013349)   #320
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You are however forgetting Vettel, Ricciardo and Max who all developed just fine.
I'm not forgetting them at all, I didn't mention them as the previous conversation was about Red Bull being geared towards Max.
Vettel's never had Verstappen as a team mate, so isn't revelvant, and Verstappen isn't relevant for obvious reasons.
By the time Ricciardo faced Verstappen he was the senior, more established driver, therefore he also isn't relevant to the prior discussion.
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Old 27 Oct 2020, 11:44 (Ref:4013354)   #321
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Ricciardo and Vettel tend to support my theory that prior to the current regs, there was more latitude in car design thus both drivers were given machinery that was more "flexible". Since then any team mate, seasoned or not, has struggled to make the car work anywhere near Max.
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Old 29 Oct 2020, 17:40 (Ref:4013758)   #322
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Vettel's never had Verstappen as a team mate, so isn't revelvant, and Verstappen isn't relevant for obvious reasons.
Vettel didn't even need Verstappen to be vanquished out of Red Bull, Ricciardo was already sufficient to defeat Vettel by 3 wins to Vettel's zero.

The point is that it is standard practice for Red Bull to promote young drivers to the team, namely Klien, Vettel, Ricciardo, Kvyat, Verstappen, Gasly, and Albon. Some of which did absolutely fine.

Hulkenberg or Perez would be, on the other hand, only the third experienced driver signed to the team following Coulthard and Webber.

I would prefer Red Bull to sign Russell, as for Russell a guaranteed Red Bull drive right now is surely better then a potential Mercedes "some time in the future", and for Red Bull you don't get many opportunities to sign such a talented future star. Even though it would only be a 1-year-deal to start with, there may be every opportunity for Red Bull to extract Russell from his Mercedes contract.

Given Red Bull have already missed out on other talents like Norris, Red Bull best get a move along!

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I'm not forgetting them at all, I didn't mention them as the previous conversation was about Red Bull being geared towards Max.
That Ricciardo defeated an incumbent Red Bull 4xWDC by three wins to zero, rather suggests Red Bull is not overly geared towards any particular driver.

Rather it simply shows that while Gasly is talented enough he is perhaps more Fisichella than Alonso (Fisichella had many equally impressive drives with Benetton & Force India after all, just like Gasly at AlphaTauri, but then put Fisico alongside Alonso and Fisico was miles behind), and Albon is perhaps not quite top-shelf either.

Unlike Gasly's Fisichella, Russell is perhaps more in the Alonso-tier IMO, hence why IMO Russell would be excellent signing for Red Bull!

The 2020 Red Bull is obviously a pointy car led by the nose, but they are not going to redesign it just because it's hard to drive both for the lead driver and especially for the second driver -- that would be a waste of time and money because the car is not that uncompetitive. Same goes for Ferrari, whose car is improving. It's up to both Albon and Vettel to look at the data, and duplicate the driving technique of Verstappen and Leclerc respectively.

If Verstappen and Leclerc can feel the grip and balance the car on the limit, it is up to Albon and Vettel to do the same! It is not up to the team to waste money making the car most stable and easier to drive. The notion that either Albon or Vettel are supplied with a deliberately inferior car is just plain silly.

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Old 29 Oct 2020, 22:22 (Ref:4013802)   #323
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V8F I think you are pretty close to the mark.

However should we also consider how a 'lead' drivers influence in directing car design/set ups will often work in reverse for the teammate?

No matter how much a lead driver might say otherwise (or lead avoids the topic all together!)
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Old 30 Oct 2020, 10:23 (Ref:4013869)   #324
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V8F I think you are pretty close to the mark.

However should we also consider how a 'lead' drivers influence in directing car design/set ups will often work in reverse for the teammate?

No matter how much a lead driver might say otherwise (or lead avoids the topic all together!)
Correct, I think Hakkinen said as much in an interview recently.

Of course if the second driver is good enough they will adapt their driving, become number 1 and then then get preference in the direction of the car. Just see Hamilton, Leclerc and Max
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Old 1 Nov 2020, 13:59 (Ref:4014301)   #325
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Today he answered the question without any doubt: no he can't

at this moment I doubt if Albon can even stay in F1 seeing what Kvyat did
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