Atmo WRC engines in 2006

[JAG]

http://www.worldrallynews.com/cgi-bi...6545477,14142,

Could be air restricted 2.5 V6s to limit power to 300-350BHP region, or more likely IMO 2l 4 cylinder engines with no restrictors, and maybe a 10,000rpm limit.

These engines would be able to produce about 330-340 BHP max. without the need for restrictors, with only very small, insignificant bhp gains able to be made, unlike unrestricted turbos who can increase power enourmously with devlopment.

Whatever the formula, high revving atmo engines, in 4wd WRC cars should be awsome.

[Lee Janotta]

Lame! Great way to jack up the costs even further!

[JAG]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Lame! Great way to jack up the costs even further!

Why would it!

The new regs/format have been designed to reduce cost significantly.

[Lee Janotta]

It's going to cost a lot more to get a 4-banger revving to 10k than it does to build a good turbo engine.

And how the hell are they going to wedge V6s into these tiny cars?

Not to mention that under rules like that, even the rally-inspired cars on the road won't have decent engines anymore.

[Alpina]

Lee is right about the cost. Revs cost money which is why most formulae have rev limits. Anyway the 2 litre thing has been done with the kit car formula and that fell out of favour due to cost.
however getting V6's into those cars would not be a problem. There are a few V6 2 litres about eg mondeo STs, alfa 156 V6,VW golf/passat. Don't know why those would make the WRC any different. the big costs are in the transmissions anyway.

[SJ Spode]

I think they should leave the engine specs alone. If they want to trim costs they need to look at the other aspects of the cars as we've discussed in previous threads

[Hammerwerfer]

I'm a great fan of normally aspirated engines, but would rather see a highly developed 2 litre than a 2.5 V6. I also am a great fan of homologation and would love to see a return to a formula using production based cars.

More classes rather than fewer so that various manufacturers could gun for class wins using something that they actually build, rather than these ludicrous kits.

It would be great to see the occasional giant killer from a lower class finishing well.

It would be great to see a 2WD car giving the 4Wd lads a run on the tarmac as well. Oops, sorry, I forgot that tarmac is on the way out as well.

Lets see, cars that nobody can buy, dirt tracks, third drivers that nobody ever heard of, not sure I'll be bothering to watch in a few years...

[JAG]

I sure will, along with the millions, and growing, wrc fanbase.

The WRCs never been better, even in the Group B days.

4wd WRC cars with the sound of a Metro 6r4 (if V6 is adopted) or Xsara F2 Kit Car (if 4 cylinder is adopted) sounds great to me.

The only thing missing from modern WRC cars is the sound, which this should address.

[Hammerwerfer]

I suppose that in this age of telemarketing the WRC is growing. But the rallies are getting shorter, less cars are participating, there is talk of eliminating tarmac, and certainly the ruling on number three drivers is completely absurd!

The Playstation generation who have never driven a rally will eat this **** up. In car cameras, computer generated stages with several cars running along them sure it is entertaining...

In my day one had to drive the stages to experience them. You had to hike through the woods in all kinds of weather to see the cars go by and there would be a fair variety of them. And each with its own note. I liked it better that way.

If the cars are all built to a formula, the sound will be pretty much the same for each one. Not a great improvement really. The sounds of the 8,4 and 6 cylinder engines of not that long ago at least had a bit of variety.

Production based rally would be great. Let the Subaru and Mitsubishis fight it out but maybe have some other classes with the 2wd BMWs, 2litre hatches, small sports cars and whatever compete as well. Something for every manufacturer and something for the enthusiast as well. Not a gravel based version of F1. Real cars on real roads, just like it used to be.

WRC is missing a lot more than noise!

[JAG]

The only thing I miss is a 2wd rwd class. Would be great if somehow rwd cars could be incorporated into S1600.

BTW the rallies are going to be extended to 4 days.

[Hammerwerfer]

That is great news to hear that the rallies are to be extended to the old 4 day format. Now just to spread them out a bit and save the tarmac stages.

I'm all for RWD but only if the car comes from the factory that way.

[racer69]

If rallying goes back to 4 days, will this mean hopefully the rallies will be longer kilometres wise, or just more spread out time wise?

I'm all for production based rallying as the main rally class, but normally aspirated 4,6 & 8 cylinder engines with RWD would be fantastic

[Hammerwerfer]

Lets hope for more stage distance, and longer transits as well, so that the overcrowding issues are addressed. The compact format just isn't working.

And lets go back to homolgated wings. The new ones on the Subarus are just getting a bit silly looking.

[Bob Irvine]

Where and when did this 4 day rally talk originate and when would it be implemented

[JAG]

They are going to stop the traditional recce and introduce the system used in some French rallies (1000 Pistes??).

The crews would practice in there rally cars in the afternoon, and compete on the stages the next morning. Scrapping the recce system means a large number of days are saved and the WRC can be increased to 16 rounds.

[Hammerwerfer]

Skipping or reducing recce and running more stages has the effect of slowing the drivers as well. The present situation sees them at 10/10ths a bit too often.

Even Carlos Sainz has complained that the current situation is much more akin to circuit racing than the rallying that he likes.

Now to bin the super specials or whatever those mickey mouse stages are called these days!

[racer69]

They should run all the rallies blind, like the RAC was for many years

[BertMk2]

The super special stages should go - they're ****.

Turbos should definitely stay - the sound of a meaty turbo assisted engine is unbeatable.

[Hammerwerfer]

I would like to think that there would be a place in rallying for the real production based turbo 4WD cars. Subaru and Mitsubishi have earned their place.

Let the atmospheric cars in on a more or less level field, but don't throw out those who have earned the right to play and created a cult following.

[DCS]

Atmo engines? Let's hope not! Yes it will reach over 300 bhp in a 2 litre but no way it will reach over 500 Nm of torque. And why on earth would you need 4wd with a max of 300 Nm of torque? And yes the current WRC sounds awfull, but a Rallycross car sounds beautiful with the chirping noises!

In the old days you had 1600/2000/2000 turbo 4x4. The only reason they ditched the 2000 class is because they where getting close to the extremely restricted WRC's... Appearently a 2 litre turbo is something really exotic for the FIA, so they restrict them...

Wow 350 bhp out of a 2 litre, well it could be at least double that! In that order I am more in favour of less (45mm?) restricted turbo charged 1600's of about 350-400 bhp especially now that there is a trend for small engines (VAG/PSA/Fiat/Renault/Mini). And ofcourse keep the S1600 as it is!

[chunder]

Blimey there is some real differnece in opinion here

Fact one the current WRC engines are not that powerful, maybe 330 hp for the best ones I should think withe restrictor, what they do ahve is phenomenal torque and that is why they are so quick.
Atmo engines may sound nice and be a little more relevant but they are prohibituvely expensive to keep running, Citroen and Peugeot rememebr both went 4wd in the end, I knwo they were banned but the only reason the Xsara and 306 were able to be so quick was coz they weighed 300 kilos less than WRC cars and had much beter power to weight.

I think the rules are OK as they are, the IRC series is gettign decent interest but when you watch it the cars just look like Super1600 cars, the engines dont sound that great, and you are never gonna get back to the old BDA days coz you dont build engines like that anymore!!

The V6 idea is great, and most manufacturers invoved do have a V6, and using that is no different to Citroen dropping a turbo on thier engine, or Skoda on theirs, rememebr the only cars that resemble their roiad version or Mitsu ann Subaru, that kind of modifying has been around for a long time, as long as you can market your car with a WRC car it doesnt matter!

Finally, as for getting rid of SS stages, what total nonsense, they bring in huge numbers of fans who dont really car who wins or how far they ahve had to walk tog et there, get real people, this is the future of marketing and showmanship in WRC. Look at the people and remember why the manufacturers are involved. Dont be so stupid!!

[zac510]

Just because the limit is 10000rpm doesn't mean you have to make it rev to that!
A current WRC engine would not be worth revving to 10000rpm as the restrictor would have cut power/torque so significantly.

A strong level of equivalency between turbo 4 and 3l v6 would be fantastic.

[DCS]

Originally Posted by zac510

A strong level of equivalency between turbo 4 and 3l v6 would be fantastic.

To get that equal you would need very restrictive rules for the turbo. In the non limited world a 3L atmo would be no match for a 2L turbo... I know F1 is in the 200-300 bhp per L, but turbo's achieve this "easily"... 400 bhp per L seems to be the tuners goals this days...