[BTCC] BTCC 2018 - Rounds 13, 14, 15 - Croft

[Mike Harte]

While everybody concentrates on how is possible that the two Subarus went from the back to the front (and actually that isn't really true anyway, because Sutton has at a minimum been in the mid-pack throughout the season so far), no one comments on cars that have run right at the front one weekend - even winning a race - and then disappear to the back of the field at the next round.


There are always more things at play in these scenarios, and sitting at our computers, we will not have all the true facts available to us.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by cameronpoe

, it was as I said a perfect storm of Tocas making and they will have to sort it out if the car runs and hides at Snetterton

wouldn't it be best for TOCA that this car disappears from the grid then ?

besides Uncle Gow said that he wants a reduced grid to 26 cars anyway ?

[medius]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

While everybody concentrates on how is possible that the two Subarus went from the back to the front (and actually that isn't really true anyway, because Sutton has at a minimum been in the mid-pack throughout the season so far), no one comments on cars that have run right at the front one weekend - even winning a race - and then disappear to the back of the field at the next round.

Case in point, PMR Vauxhalls after a blistering start to the season.


Teams have good and bad weekends on such a closely matched grid. 3/10ths off the pace can be 20 grid places.

[porsche962fan]

Matt Neal and Tim Harvey on twitter

@timharvey7 very strategic tweets re Subaru boost but your missing the point, are they now the fastest engine no! Prob it’s a car which was allowed to be built to different regs than any other on the grid so if u give them proper boost they’ll smoke everyone that is the dilemma!

https://twitter.com/MattNealRacing/s...30874766069762

Andrew Simpson
‏

@AndySimpson96
7h7 hours ago
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Replying to @MattNealRacing @timharvey7
Why are the Subaru's built to different regs?



@MattNealRacing
7h7 hours ago
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A good question and one all the other teams have been asking since it happened, but rules changed now so no one else can do the same.....

and then Tim

TIM HARVEY
‏

@timharvey7
8h8 hours ago
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Replying to @MattNealRacing
Totally agree Matt. Trouble is that is not what everyone complains about. They think its all boost... C of G calc's do not translate to on track performance.

TIM
‏

@timharvey7
8h8 hours ago
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Replying to @MattNealRacing
BTW, I think your cars and the @Eurotech_Racing cars really do need more boost...!! You need to start banging the drum and I'll support you!

[Racer65]

Why are they always so cryptic?

I remember Neal banging on about a RWD Civic totally missing the point that the Civic 4WD has a transverse not inline engine so it was never allowed to be RWD. Is that what he means about the regs changing? That was always the case I thought.

[geordiecriag101]

Just a quick one, i was lucky enough to win a BMR vip pass for sunday so got to see behind the scenes what was going on. Everyone was very nervous all day as they really had no idea how the engines were going to survive, so even after race 1 were you would think they would be over the moon and celebrating, i can tell you they were not. The subaru chassis is a great one for all the reasons listed countless times already and this weekend just played into their hands. Also there is one thing that ive not seen anyone mention, if you watch the races you will see that the they make a lot of time up in braking zones. Simply put, as they are slow at the end of the straights, to hit the same apex speeds as other cars they don't have to brake as early.

Back to the VIP tickets, if you ever get the chance to get them, take them as it really makes a great day. The BMR staff were great all day and even Warren Scott came round to make sure every was ok and was great to talk to, very honest and open about things and you could tell how much passion he has for his team. Even the weather played its part, so a great day out.

[Rob877]

I think this was always going to happen regarding the Subarus. I was always surprised by the lengths Plato would go to slap himself on the back regarding this 'game changing package'. Surely better to keep your cards close to your chest, not his style though I know! Although possibly just playing the PR game, something he knows much more about than me! At the end of the day any dominant car is going to get pegged back in this series (in my opinion this is a good thing for many reasons, for another thread probably though). The package is inherently better than anything else on the grid, and can only be pegged back mid season with a lack of power.

I do think people are getting a bit hysterical, considering that Croft is the circuit on the calendar which suits the Subaru like no other. Also I think Croft is quite a unique circuit in that drivers can be quick at the majority of tracks they race at, but can struggle to set a car up for Croft. In BTCC terms Eurotech are a prime example, having struggled badly for a decent setup last year too. Also in the support series James Dorlin has dominated most rounds in the Clios this year but struggled to get the car working around Croft. I understand this is caused by the surface as well as the layout from what I heard in the paddock on Sunday.

Ultimately it probably would have been a good thing if this car had never been allowed in the series, but I'm sure it's hard to say no when one of the main stars in the series has managed to lure a manufacture (however limited) in to the series.

For what it's worth there is no way the performance of the Subarus at the weekend was helped mainly by the boost increase, more a number of other incremental gains made at a circuit that suits the car down to the ground. Unfortunately there is a section of the series support base who struggle to comprehend much more than the magical term 'boost'. But also more worryingly for me, a selection of people who should know better but have an agenda that this argument suits perfectly.

Soz for the ramble! Peace out

[Matt K]

If everyone moans so much, I've got an idea. Let everybody race identical Rileys and they swap the cars from time to time just to ensure that everything is so equal...
I enjoy BTCC very much but complaining about Subarus, about RWD v FWD case, weights, engines, everything makes me feel dizzy. Actually everyone should still be happy that almost the whole field has a chance to shine because normally such things do not happen in motorsport or any other sport basically.

[S griffin]

I agree there is too much bickering, they should just get on with it, the Scoobys were helped by this being a RWD circuit

Anyway at the midpoint of the season we already have four first time winners. This is how many we've had per season since 1991

91: 3 (Hoy, Cleland, Sugden)
92: 0
93: 6 (Winkelhock, Radisich, Bailey, O'Dor, Leslie, Menu)
94: 2 (Tarquini, Simoni)
95: 3 (Rydell, Thompson, Burt)
96: 2 (Biela, Ravaglia)
97: 3 (Plato, Bintcliffe, Reid (NC race))
98: 1 (Warwick)
99: 4 (Neal, Aiello, Muller, Kox)
00: 1 (Kristensen)
01: 4 (Bennett, Harrison, Moen, Graves)
02: 3 (Hughes, Priaulx, Morrison)
03: 1 (Turkington)
04: 4 (Hines, Chilton, Eaves, Huff)
05: 2 (Collard, Howell)
06: 3 (Flash, Jordan, Gio)
07: 3 (Turner, Jackson, O-C)
08: 0
09: 1 (Jelley)
10: 2 (Kane, Jordan)
11: 2 (Boardman, Nash)
12: 3 (Newsham, Taylor-Smith, Wrathall)
13: 2 (Tordoff, Austin)
14: 1 (Morgan)
15: 1 (Goff)
16: 2 (Tingram, Sutton)
17: 2 (Moffat,Cole)
18: 4 so far (Proctor, Cook, Simpson,Lloyd)

So can we match 1993's record? Let's see

[BtccLee]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I agree there is too much bickering, they should just get on with it, the Scoobys were helped by this being a RWD circuit

Anyway at the midpoint of the season we already have four first time winners. This is how many we've had per season since 1991

91: 3 (Hoy, Cleland, Sugden)
92: 0
93: 6 (Winkelhock, Radisich, Bailey, O'Dor, Leslie, Menu)
94: 2 (Tarquini, Simoni)
95: 3 (Rydell, Thompson, Burt)
96: 2 (Biela, Ravaglia)
97: 3 (Plato, Bintcliffe, Reid (NC race))
98: 1 (Warwick)
99: 4 (Neal, Aiello, Muller, Kox)
00: 1 (Kristensen)
01: 4 (Bennett, Harrison, Moen, Graves)
02: 3 (Hughes, Priaulx, Morrison)
03: 1 (Turkington)
04: 4 (Hines, Chilton, Eaves, Huff)
05: 2 (Collard, Howell)
06: 3 (Flash, Jordan, Gio)
07: 3 (Turner, Jackson, O-C)
08: 0
09: 1 (Jelley)
10: 2 (Kane, Jordan)
11: 2 (Boardman, Nash)
12: 3 (Newsham, Taylor-Smith, Wrathall)
13: 2 (Tordoff, Austin)
14: 1 (Morgan)
15: 1 (Goff)
16: 2 (Tingram, Sutton)
17: 2 (Moffat,Cole)
18: 4 so far (Proctor, Cook, Simpson,Lloyd)

So can we match 1993's record? Let's see

Cammish and Oliphant the men most likely?

Also, stat that I love, by my maths there are now 20 BTCC race-winners on the grid. That has got to be some kind of record surely?

[S griffin]

Mention of Cammish, where has he been the last few meetings? He had a good first couple of meetings, then seemed to have not done much since. I was expecting a bit more from him, but then again the Honda is no longer the dominant force it once was

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Mention of Cammish, where has he been the last few meetings? He had a good first couple of meetings, then seemed to have not done much since. I was expecting a bit more from him, but then again the Honda is no longer the dominant force it once was

To be fair I've been impressed with Cammish. He's still learning the car, very different to anything he's driven before, yet scoring solid points at every track. Granted, he has not been as impressive as he was at Brands, but still very impressive in a field as close as this. He'll be winning races soon!

Looking at the other rookies, Oliphant has been very impressive also and has broken into the top 10 a few times. Thompson I think is limited by the underperforming CC more than anything, and I hopes he gets a chance in some more competitive machinery in the coming seasons.

And, as we predicted, the move into the BTCC looks to be too early for Smelt - can't recall any incidents he was involved in but never seen him finish more than about 3 cars from last.

[cameronpoe]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Mention of Cammish, where has he been the last few meetings? He had a good first couple of meetings, then seemed to have not done much since. I was expecting a bit more from him, but then again the Honda is no longer the dominant force it once was

The two circuits he hasnt tested on have been Oulton and Croft, so basically he gets around 25-30 laps before qualifying to learn FWD vagaries of circuit, bed in the tyres and try to set up a brand new car that has Dynamics scratching its head at times as they build up data.

To get within less than 2/10th of Matt Neal who has 650 plus races of experience in FWD Cars seems to me to be pretty good at a circuit like Croft.

Dan has come to Dynamics without any front wheel drive experience of any type it was always going to be up and down in year 1, the Snetterton test is a chance to crunch in the mileage.

I fancy Dan for Pole at Snetterton, no weight and super fast in the quick corners..

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Mention of Cammish, where has he been the last few meetings? He had a good first couple of meetings, then seemed to have not done much since. I was expecting a bit more from him, but then again the Honda is no longer the dominant force it once was

Originally Posted by Evantra

To be fair I've been impressed with Cammish. He's still learning the car, very different to anything he's driven before, yet scoring solid points at every track. Granted, he has not been as impressive as he was at Brands, but still very impressive in a field as close as this. He'll be winning races soon!

The question is - would Dynamics be better off if they'd actually put matt Jackson in the car? I'd take a punt at yes - Cammish hasn't proved to be the 'plug and play' option Dynamics were after. Don't get me wrong - he's done okay - but he's not set the world on fire.

[S griffin]

Well he almost put it on pole in his first outing, so you have to say he has got the potential

[justracing]

Originally Posted by snowen250

They are becoming a real scourge!

Now it is fine if you erect it (ahem) at the back, maybe at Brands somewhere like the edge of the bank before the fence at clearways. That's fine.

But this past Sunday for instance, quiet day at Brands Hatch, i'm sat on my chair on the bank by graham hill, and some bloody great tent goes up right next to me! It was sunny, no rain, no real wind, so why the tent?

The people then sat around it on chairs!

And don't get me started on those who stick them right at the front at paddock and Druids.... by all means get there early, claim a spot with a chair, that's what I do, but then at least others can sit/stand behind me and still see....

Absolutely agree, tents/gazebos should be banned altogether

[RS67]

Originally Posted by cameronpoe

Dan has come to Dynamics without any front wheel drive experience of any type it was always going to be up and down in year 1, the Snetterton test is a chance to crunch in the mileage.

Dan tested at Snetterton with Motorbase in the Focus a few years back when he won the Formula Ford Championship.

[porsche962fan]

Bartie laments BMR sitation too

found religion, been reborn and they’re now supersonic

and some more Neal

You go up and down the pit lane and all the teams have been working hard to try and make improvements – and suddenly they’ve been give a second bonus, Sorry, but I don’t accept that.

They’ve gone from being 29th on the grid to suddenly being on the front row whilst Matt Simpson was on pole at Oulton Park and then he is back down in 27th. I know the series is competitive but to me, that is stupid.

I’ve had messages, texts and emails from people all weekend asking me what is going on, but what am I supposed to say to them?

it doesn't make absolutely no sense what TOCA/ Gow does, he appeases just ONE team but ****es off the near entire rest of the paddock in the process

[Alfisti]

Totally agree 962.

Tinkering to level a playing field is one thing, but these buggers (TOCA) don't make a few twists of a screw, they blow the whole thing out of the water: the only question for me is - is it intentional or incompetence?

[Rob877]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Bartie laments BMR sitation too

and some more Neal





it doesn't make absolutely no sense what TOCA/ Gow does, he appeases just ONE team but ****es off the near entire rest of the paddock in the process

What is it you think TOCA have done? The tinkering done between Oulton and Croft hasn't really made that much of a difference. Matt Neal is playing politics because he couldn't keep up with other cars, not just RWD.

[Racer65]

It's mad to look at one circuit in isolation. Neal just playing games. Presumably his suspended ban is up now with the amount of innuendos he's dropping?

I thought the teams agreed to the inlet changes? He seems to be implying they didn't.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Rob877

Matt Neal is playing politics because he couldn't keep up with other cars, not just RWD.

is Bartie too ?

and how do you explain that WSR were also quite hopeless on this track compared to BMR ?

as matter WSR did't score a single win the whole weekend what is considered a track for them

[Akrapovic]

Neal is moaning, but I do see his point. Everyone else at the back struggling away didn't get performance boosts. It's just a bit...weird really. Not saying the boost made all the difference, but to go from the back straight to the front, whilst getting a helping hand a little is a bit crazy. It's a RWD track sure, but the BMWs were ahead of the Subarus on other tracks, and behind here. How does that work really? If I was WSR I'd be a little miffed at being legitimately the best RWD team, turning up to a RWD track, and being beaten by a car that just got a helping hand.

In any other series, we'd all cry foul. In BTCC it's just messy. It really does feel like TOCA don't have a handle on the cars balancing, especially the Subaru. And to be blunt, I don't buy the balancing techniques that's talking about here - about how they only balance engine power etc. Yet we're still seeing adjustments made to old cars - cars which are known quantities, have been for years, and are not getting significant upgrades from small teams. Why are they being adjusted so many years in?

It's just...weird. Not corrupt, not on purpose. Just weird.

[Rob877]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

is Bartie too ?

and how do you explain that WSR were also quite hopeless on this track compared to BMR ?

as matter WSR did't score a single win the whole weekend what is considered a track for them

I think it's been quite widely reported that WSR struggled with setup all weekend, with Colin Turkington admitting as much at the end of the day. I wouldn't say they were quite hopeless though. Jordan was on for a third in the first race with a car that looked very lairy from trackside before he binned it. Turkington got stuck behind Ingram in race 2 where he may have had the pace to run with Sutton if he'd got by. Collard was unlucky with reliability in race 2 also.

I get that there is anger at the BMR situation, I just feel that their performance at Croft was more down to a number of factors, with the boost being given to them by TOCA a very small part of a whole bunch of other reasons. Sutton being last in the speed traps at the start/finish line proving this point. It's after a corner that is all about pure traction, a RWD car's bread and butter. It wouldn't be bottom of the pile there if Subaru were handed a load of boost.

[geordiecriag101]

Just a very quick one, here's my vid from track side on sunday, only managed to get the three main touring car races this time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdoQBjp1UxA