BNT NZSuperTourer 2015

[Icarus_nz]

I figure a new thread is in order.

Some things it would be nice to remember if you're posting here
1. This thread is about NZST. Try to keep on subject.

2. The discussion on the perceived comparative appeal of the class has largely been done to death. If the class doesn't appeal to you don't watch it. Simple. Don't comment here, just get on with the things you do enjoy.

3. I've enjoyed reading the posts where people explain their reasoning behind their post or their thoughts. I'd like to see more of that.

So here's looking forward to some informed, rational comment and debate.

Cheers

[NZSTfan]

Good call Icarus and a happy new year to all
I trust that all of you are safe and did not get caught up in the Gisborne riots!!

Anyway, the rumour mill has been running on overdrive in the off season ranging from the absurd to the 'maybe'. I wont post any of these here as anyone close to the category would have no doubt heard the same.

So my call for 2015, or at least the upcoming sprint season is to not expect any major development or even good news. I fear that the sprints could be a dead duck.
However, I also have some faith that the category, being a business, will come up trumps for the 15/16 season so long as they can make it affordable and attractive to competitors as there is no doubt that the package and concept is a perfect fit for NZ. People have been talking of GT racing being the next sliced bread, but i cant see NZ having the depth and dollars to put together a GT series that is of any value or attraction to teams, punters and sponsors. We dont even see our NZGT series making it onto TV even though the cars are insane. But that's not real 'GT' racing that we are seeing worldwide.
NZST assure me the business side of things is pretty much there - which to be fair i find hard to believe, but i have not seen the books. I am also assured that most of the other aspects of its internal infrastructure are looking good. This is why i firmly believe that the rest of this season will more than likely be a write-off. But next season should see some improvement. If not then i feel that ST will be part of the history books.
In respect to Icarus thread rules i will not divulge my thoughts on another similar series.
Lets hope for some good discussion here and hopefully 2015 will bring us a decent series that people want to be part of. If it ends up being made up mostly of Aussie v8sc hopefulls then so be it, because I, like many still follow the aussie v8 series with great interest.

Cheers

Stu

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

make it affordable and attractive to competitors

I'm going to call you on this one.
There seems to be an accepted idea that NZST is 'too expensive'.
Compared to what?

Perhaps someone who knows can enlighten me.
How is this category more expensive than the 'old' NZV8?

I realise that there were 'field-fillers' in the old class who were spending far less than the front runners but it needs to be pointed out that they were underspending and therefore never going to be competitive. Therefore the comparison is useless.
In a category where qualifying times have only a few tenths separating them, everything has to be spot on.
Is the cost thing an 'apples and oranges' measure?

Engine -What is the mileage between rebuilds for the current engine? An what approximately is a rebuild worth?
The old engines wouldn't run a full season and were 20k plus for a build I'm told
Furthermore, I'm not aware of debate about engines being 'different'

G/Box - Plenty has been said about the gearbox but my recollection of the old g/box is that they needed a tickle up every couple of meetings

Diff - no better, no worse

Brakes - I would have thought that these were significantly cheaper. The front running cars in the old category used to throw brake parts at the car

Tyres - Aren't these cheaper? And more importantly the performance over life is more consistent making any running more meaningful.

Development - No can do.

Accident damage - this I can see is an area where cost could be reduced.
Is there a more cost effective alternative to the OEM lights, mirrors, doors etc? The exhaust seems to suffer as well as tear a bit of gear up.

Certainly the upgrade necessary in the first 18 months added to the cost but I would have thought that was to be expected with a new car.

The thing that seems to contribute most to the drive-train cost/maintenance is the way the engine delivers its power. It would make sense to try to soften this somehow.

All the other costs; travel, accommodation, food, pit gear, rental cars etc are the same no matter what class you run - unless you bring everyman and his cousin with you (as some seem to love to do)

Sometimes I think that the problem with equivalent equipment is that there is nowhere to hide. In the old days the field fillers could build their excuses in before they even left home.

If it ends up being made up mostly of Aussie v8sc hopefuls then so be it, because I, like many, still follow the Aussie v8 series with great interest.

Given the pallorous state of our feeder classes for the last 5 plus years is it any wonder there are very very few young New Zealanders wanting to have a go. Particularly when there are any number of far less competitive classes to make themselves look good in.

Anyway - if someone who knows can be bothered to comment on the relative costs I'd appreciate that

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

I'm going to call you on this one.
There seems to be an accepted idea that NZST is 'too expensive'.
Compared to what?

Perhaps someone who knows can enlighten me.
How is this category more expensive than the 'old' NZV8?

I realise that there were 'field-fillers' in the old class who were spending far less than the front runners but it needs to be pointed out that they were underspending and therefore never going to be competitive. Therefore the comparison is useless. There were also field fillers with money but no real ability.
In a category where qualifying times have only a few tenths separating them, everything has to be spot on.
Is the cost thing an 'apples and oranges' measure? See comment above.

Engine -What is the mileage between rebuilds for the current engine? An what approximately is a rebuild worth? The labour for a complete rebuild including blue printing the Ls7 engine is a fixed price of $3,400 plus GST, at Edgell Performance Engines, who have rebuilt over 50% of the current V8ST field, Parts cost's for a current spec engine should be limited to ring's and bearing's and any other worn parts.
The old engines wouldn't run a full season and were 20k plus for a build I'm told. Yes you could pay that, but my NZV8 engines were usually about $14K because you had to replace so many valve train parts because they ran solid lifters, and the piston's were very expensive parts back then, but not so now day's.[/COLOR]
Furthermore, I'm not aware of debate about engines being 'different'. You are 100% right, only the knockers, prattle on about this non issue

G/Box - Plenty has been said about the gearbox but my recollection of the old g/box is that they needed a tickle up every couple of meetings. The NZV8 front runners rebuilt their gearboxes after every race meeting, because you had to use 1st gear so often in those 4 speed gearbox's and that really hammered the gearbox's. The ST gearboxes, have been significantly upgrades over the first two years, however also need regular maintenance, largely because of the high torque load, and flat-shift shock. Both of these issues are being addressed and the life of the gearbox components is now comparable to the Australian supercars former Hollinger gearboxes.

Diff - no better, no worse? Significantly better and lower cost to maintain as its a proper 9" differential and purpose built casing.

Brakes - I would have thought that these were significantly cheaper. The front running cars in the old category used to throw brake parts at the car. Again Significantly better in every cost respect, however because of the extra bite you get with any new pad and rotor some well funded teams are using brand new parts simply because they can, and as you yourself mention the times are so close 1/10 of a second can mean the difference between being on the front row or three row's back!

Tyre's - Aren't these cheaper? And more importantly the performance over life is more consistent making any running more meaningful. They were cheaper but ST increased the price last year to increase their revenue stream,

Development - No can do. Correct nothing is allowed by an individual team, were as in NZV9's it was constant development.

Accident damage - this I can see is an area where cost could be reduced.
Is there a more cost effective alternative to the OEM lights, mirrors, doors etc? The exhaust seems to suffer as well as tear a bit of gear up. We had the same issues in NZV8's

Certainly the upgrade necessary in the first 18 months added to the cost but I would have thought that was to be expected with a new car. Correct.

The thing that seems to contribute most to the drive-train cost/maintenance is the way the engine delivers its power. It would make sense to try to soften this somehow. Correct much better than what it was but still needs R&D.

All the other costs; travel, accommodation, food, pit gear, rental cars etc are the same no matter what class you run - unless you bring everyman and his cousin with you (as some seem to love to do)

Sometimes I think that the problem with equivalent equipment is that there is nowhere to hide. In the old days the field fillers could build their excuses in before they even left home. Correct, and that is exactly why certain race drivers, will never sit their bums in a V8ST.




Given the pallorous state of our feeder classes for the last 5 plus years is it any wonder there are very very few young New Zealanders wanting to have a go. Particularly when there are any number of far less competitive classes to make themselves look good in.

Anyway - if someone who knows can be bothered to comment on the relative costs I'd appreciate that

More than happy to dot the i's and cross the t's for you with regards to cost's, I also hope that somebody like Foggy who I know keeps a watching brief on this forum chips in with his own first hand knowledge of the actual cost, and there is not many running at the front of V8ST that can do it as cheaply as Angus, A/does most of the work himself, quite happy to use others cast off's if they pass his 'eyechrometer', B/ uses 'weekend warrior's'
s very effectively, C/ looks after his sponsors.

So come on Angus please contribute 5 minutes of your time lad!

I will attempt to answer and maybe expand a little on you bullet points in red within your own post.

I would also like to say what another constructive and insightful post, Icarus, and so right about the field fillers, and their ready made excuses before they left home!

There are former NZV8 field fillers, who never won a race not because they did not have money but because they did not have the ability and they knew full well by moving into V8ST [were there is no place to hide and no excuses possible' they would be 'exposed' like Hans Christian Anderson fabled Emperor who wore the finest Robes in the land in his eyes, but to his mere mortal subject was completely naked!

[NZSTfan]

Fair call to bring me up on that point Icarus. You are right, compared to what? I guess my comments come from my own chats with team owners who say you need a minimum of 250k to run a car in ST. Some teams are pouring double that figure, but only a handful at best. So yes, it is hard to compare apples with apples, but i would like to know what it costs to run a single tlx car taking into account their races are in the most part, shorter than ST races.
I always remember a 'lecture' i received from Andy Booth when i was invited out to AV8 in Kumeu to oogle over the ST prototype. He told me of NZV8 TL teams spending up to 50k a year just on one part/component alone to eek out that extra 10th or so. This was one of the main things that made me think that the common chassis and components formula was a perfect fit for us in NZ.
And lets be fair here, compared to DVS or V8SC, ST is a bargain.

Stu

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Fair call to bring me up on that point Icarus. You are right, compared to what? I guess my comments come from my own chats with team owners who say you need a minimum of 250k to run a car in ST. Some teams are pouring double that figure, but only a handful at best. So yes, it is hard to compare apples with apples, but i would like to know what it costs to run a single tlx car taking into account their races are in the most part, shorter than ST races.
I always remember a 'lecture' i received from Andy Booth when i was invited out to AV8 in Kumeu to oogle over the ST prototype. He told me of NZV8 TL teams spending up to 50k a year just on one part/component alone to eek out that extra 10th or so. This was one of the main things that made me think that the common chassis and components formula was a perfect fit for us in NZ.
And lets be fair here, compared to DVS or V8SC, ST is a bargain.

Stu

Hi Stu, lets deal with some fact here, nobody but nobody is "pouring double that figure" i.e.. $250K per season

Most ST teams are spending less than $250K, many are spending less than $200K, and some are spending less than $150K per season.

The NZV8 Component you talked about was the engine, and all the top NZV8's had to have two engines and two gearboxes, less than 50% ST teams own a second engine, which now costs $28K for a brand new blue printed engine. Only few ST Team carry a second gearbox.

A Toyota or Nissan TLX engine will cost a lot more than $30K, and cost very similar monies to run as an ST. Just ask Steve Varney he has run both and that is what he told me at Puke a month ago.

[Icarus_nz]

When I say 'compared to what?' The measure I use is cost vs lap time with a correction for vehicle weight. Driving big heavy powerful cars with little downforce takes real skill. The weight punishes the driver when they get it wrong.

It wouldn't surprise if a TLX appears to be cheaper to run at the moment because it's not like they are being driven properly hard is it? I'd think any apparent saving would be straight out the window at rebuild time however.

Just as an FYI, an engine lease for a motor capable of winning in DVS is 100k plus.
Personally I'm a fan of controlling costs with a spec engine.
Even single engine rules get out of hand when a Kent 1600 costs upward of 14k to build

It would be interesting to hear what Angus considers a NZST budget to be.
250k sounds about right for a 'pay to play' deal.
I believe a TRS budget this year is about 160k. Toyota of course own the chassis and engine and at that price I can't see a true commercial return on the investment I.e. Toyota are sponsoring indirectly every competitor. Hey, you do what it takes to fill the grid when someone else is footing the bill

[adbutler]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Anyway, the rumour mill has been running on overdrive in the off season ranging from the absurd to the 'maybe'. I wont post any of these here as anyone close to the category would have no doubt heard the same.

Please do. As somebody 'not in the know' I'd be very interested to here any rumours, absurd or otherwise.

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

So my call for 2015, or at least the upcoming sprint season is to not expect any major development or even good news. I fear that the sprints could be a dead duck.

Can they (V8ST) afford to allow the sprints to be a 'dead duck'? Wouldn't that drive away potential sponsors and drivers while, at the same time, alienate those drivers that have remained loyal to the series?

[promax]

Originally Posted by adbutler

Please do. As somebody 'not in the know' I'd be very interested to here any rumours, absurd or otherwise.


Can they (V8ST) afford to allow the sprints to be a 'dead duck'? Wouldn't that drive away potential sponsors and drivers while, at the same time, alienate those drivers that have remained loyal to the series?

well he can't tell you if you're not 'in the know' anyone 'in the know' would know that

ps/ I'm not 'in the know'

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by adbutler

Please do. As somebody 'not in the know' I'd be very interested to here any rumours, absurd or otherwise.

Hi AB, sorry for the late reply, been trying to get back in to work mode...eeuughh!

Just PM me if you want to hear some of the garble I have heard over the last month or two... i'll leave it in your hands.

In the meantime, you may wish to check-in on one of the rumours that I eluded too back in December about some new drivers. It seems that the good people at Velocity are one step ahead of the game (as usual ) and are choosing to break this item...

https://www.facebook.com/VelocityNews This concerns the potential for an Aussie female driver from the PCC and now DVS POSSIBLY replacing Andre for rounds 5, 6 and 7.

This one has been doing the rounds for some time, so I take my hat off to the chaps at Velocity for having the 'bolo' to create the story in the first place.

On a side note, I really do think the two people involved with Velocity (both very nice people, and very professional) should actually see if they can replace the dreary Eric Thomson at Herald Driven. Their stories are way more on the money than the dribble that Eric writes (well, most of the time anyway, especially when it comes to local motorsport). That's just IMO anyway.

Hope this helps mate

Stu

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Hi AB, sorry for the late reply, been trying to get back in to work mode...eeuughh!

Just PM me if you want to hear some of the garble I have heard over the last month or two... i'll leave it in your hands.

In the meantime, you may wish to check-in on one of the rumours that I eluded too back in December about some new drivers. It seems that the good people at Velocity are one step ahead of the game (as usual ) and are choosing to break this item...

https://www.facebook.com/VelocityNews This concerns the potential for an Aussie female driver from the PCC and now DVS POSSIBLY replacing Andre for rounds 5, 6 and 7.

This one has been doing the rounds for some time, so I take my hat off to the chaps at Velocity for having the 'bolo' to create the story in the first place.

On a side note, I really do think the two people involved with Velocity (both very nice people, and very professional) should actually see if they can replace the dreary Eric Thomson at Herald Driven. Their stories are way more on the money than the dribble that Eric writes (well, most of the time anyway, especially when it comes to local motorsport). That's just IMO anyway.

Hope this helps mate

Stu

Got to disagree with you I have read some muck in velocity that has not been correctly fact checked e.g. the ending of the 2013/14 Super Tourers season one that comes to mind.

Eric Thompson fact checks and won't run rumors in a major newspaper.

[Icarus_nz]

Interesting facebook page NZST.
Interesting story there about the i45

With the right people involved (drivers, technicians) and complete freedom to optomise the package, not that I think it will require too much tweaking, this should be a rocket. AND it gets another body style out there for those who care about such things.

Lot of bang for buck there I think

[NZSTfan]

Tis, your opinion FD and you are entitled to it

However, Velocity are made up of 2 part timers, the Herald is not.

But its horses for courses. I just choose to peruse Velocity more so than most media outlets as part of my morning routine. Included in that is Speedcafe (quite enjoying the 'Summer Grill' sessions ATM), ST Facebook, CRC (which can sometimes throw up a good story), Autoweek, and then, if I want to really laugh my a**e off, that FB page by A. Dick (classic autonews??)

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Interesting facebook page NZST.
Interesting story there about the i45

With the right people involved (drivers, technicians) and complete freedom to optomise the package, not that I think it will require too much tweaking, this should be a rocket. AND it gets another body style out there for those who care about such things.

Lot of bang for buck there I think

Yes, agree, I just wish there was more than one shot of the thing!!!

Maybe someone has some front-on, side-on images of the i45 they could put up on here?? (Matt??)

Its a pity its not actually racing in the series though isn't it? It would certainly add another interesting element into the mix.

[HProject]

Thanks for the positive comment, Stu Always great to get good feedback, though Velocity is still a project in the making.

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Got to disagree with you I have read some muck in velocity that has not been correctly fact checked e.g. the ending of the 2013/14 Super Tourers season one that comes to mind.

Eric Thompson fact checks and won't run rumors in a major newspaper.

Bad feedback's obviously good to get too in terms of learning where we can improve, so cheers I would note that the article you referenced is coming up on 12 months old, and is the only article we've ever posted which has been deleted. I posted a public apology and explanation of the post here at the time, and that post forced us to adjust our internal policies on what we publish and don't publish.

And throughout 2014, certain elements of that initial story have been vindicated.

Since then, any article we post on Velocity has to have more than two supporting sources of note. And so far, that logic has worked out well - with no major complaints since.

Here's another shot of the Hyundai - pic taken by one of the staffers at Manfeild Raceway:

[NZSTfan]

Yup, that's one cool ST. If Darth Vader had a smartphone, i reckon it would look something like that!!!

[raymond]

Originally Posted by HProject

Here's another shot of the Hyundai - pic taken by one of the staffers at Manfeild Raceway:

I note that the new owner has turned to the expertise of a NZ Rally Champion (Geoff Argyle) seen in the picture, to get the most out of the car!!!

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by raymond

I note that the new owner has turned to the expertise of a NZ Rally Champion (Geoff Argyle) seen in the picture, to get the most out of the car!!!

Crunch I know its been said in jest Haha, but FYI, the car as it stands is 100% a Supertourer, as such people like myself can give John all the set up information that he needs other to be potentially as quick as any Supertourer.

I sold the car to John, and continue to work with him on making the most out of the freedom's he has without having to cut and tuck anything that would prevent it being returned for possible NZ Supertourer racing in the future.

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by HProject

Thanks for the positive comment, Stu Always great to get good feedback, though Velocity is still a project in the making.



Bad feedback's obviously good to get too in terms of learning where we can improve, so cheers I would note that the article you referenced is coming up on 12 months old, and is the only article we've ever posted which has been deleted. I posted a public apology and explanation of the post here at the time, and that post forced us to adjust our internal policies on what we publish and don't publish.

And throughout 2014, certain elements of that initial story have been vindicated.

Since then, any article we post on Velocity has to have more than two supporting sources of note. And so far, that logic has worked out well - with no major complaints since.

Here's another shot of the Hyundai - pic taken by one of the staffers at Manfeild Raceway:

Glad you guys have learnt from the error and put things in place to prevent future issues. Even with my comments I'm also a follower on Facebook of the page. I'd like to see more articles on Interviews with drivers pre meeting I'm sure most are happy to talk.

[NZSTfan]

For those interested.....I believe there is a NZST test day at HD on the 14th of Jan. I think this is to be Renee's first hit-out in a ST, and I also understand a handful of other Aussie hopefuls are also attending. I think it is open to the public, so if you're still on your hols, or can take an arvo off, then you could head down and see whats up

On to more pressing matters_____________________

Its seems from what I can tell that NZST management are throwing everything into the sprints and of course the 15/16 year. I have heard that Mike Marsden is going to attend all SC meetings that have the DVS and Utes present in 2015 so he can promote the category to anyone who is interested in Aus. As I understand it (and happy to be corrected here), V8SC are quite keen on the ST series as a feeder to DVS and SC, and I believe they want to see NZST get their 'A' into 'G' so there can be more cohesion between the two similar categories. If this is true then I see this as a big step in the right direction for SuperTut-tuts

That is all for now...

Stu

[adbutler]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

V8SC are quite keen on the ST series as a feeder to DVS and SC, and I believe they want to see NZST get their 'A' into 'G' so there can be more cohesion between the two similar categories. If this is true then I see this as a big step in the right direction for SuperTut-tuts

If correct that's potentially HUGE news for V8ST.

[GHOGH]

Would the Development series in Australia eventually adopt a V8ST spec car to keep running costs down?
i.e a) Old Pace chassis from V8SC, LS7 engine running to the Albins in the back or
b)Could the V8SC pace chassis be converted to the quaife gearbox and separate diff?

[promax]

Originally Posted by GHOGH

Would the Development series in Australia eventually adopt a V8ST spec car to keep running costs down?
i.e a) Old Pace chassis from V8SC, LS7 engine running to the Albins in the back or
b)Could the V8SC pace chassis be converted to the quaife gearbox and separate diff?

don't you think the current V8SC would end up in the Development series? after all.. aren't V8SC planning on running their new Gen 2 cars in 2 years time? their current cars will need a new home.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by GHOGH

Would the Development series in Australia eventually adopt a V8ST spec car to keep running costs down?
i.e a) Old Pace chassis from V8SC, LS7 engine running to the Albins in the back or
b)Could the V8SC pace chassis be converted to the quaife gearbox and separate diff?

Hmmm interesting post there GHOGH, in the most unlikely event that such common sense would ever prevail in Australia, here are some fact's on what you can and cant do at least from a commercially viable point of view.

The Aussie COFT prototype car was originally built by Pace with a live rear-end, and then had to be hastily converted when V8SC suddenly decided they wanted an independent rear end. Its not practical to convert these chassis back to a live rear end.

There is no reason at all that older V8SC chassis could not be fitted with a V8ST spec Ls7 engine, as its essentially the same dimension's as the so called Holden Motorsport engine, other than being 1" taller. Again "Pig's might fly" before such common sense would ever prevail.

[The Realist]

Interesting who was testing the Supertourer.
Hopefully they can all find a budget.

http://www.speedcafe.com/2015/01/14/...rtourer-drive/