[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by midgetman

There's only so many philanthropic billionaires out there, F1 will run out of them soon.

Particularly ones with children who hold Superlicences.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

According to this article on The China Daily, car sales are down and I've read a similar article from Reuters.

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/2020...21727b678.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN21O1JL

The fact that car sales are down does not mean a drop in oil consumption, as more cars are sold than are scraped then demand for oil increases but perhaps not as fast as it was last year.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GT6

The fact that car sales are down does not mean a drop in oil consumption, as more cars are sold than are scraped then demand for oil increases but perhaps not as fast as it was last year.

The IEA, International Energy Agency, is expecting oil demand to decline in 2020 and cites contraction in oil consumption in China.

https://www.iea.org/news/global-oil-...ily-on-markets

Maybe there should be a thread on oil consumption and production and its impact on Formula 1?

[Moneyseeker]

New twist in the Rockit saga as apparently according to Dieter Rencken they are due to re-appear as a Mercedes sponsor, perhaps from Austria.

We also learn that Rockit terminated the agreement, not Williams..

https://www.racefans.net/2020/06/24/...okit-mercedes/

[S griffin]

How galling that must be for Williams then.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

New twist in the Rockit saga as apparently according to Dieter Rencken they are due to re-appear as a Mercedes sponsor, perhaps from Austria.

We also learn that Rockit terminated the agreement, not Williams..

https://www.racefans.net/2020/06/24/...okit-mercedes/

Ethics, Toto style, nice one Mercedes!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

How galling that must be for Williams then.

Yes. Tough pill to swallow.

Originally Posted by wnut

Ethics, Toto style, nice one Mercedes!

My perspective is that Mercedes (like everyone) has an advertising rate card. And if someone approaches them with a sponsorship deal, they should look at it. While we talk about teams like Mercedes and their deep pockets, they are not immune to questions of budget. Should Mercedes have turned them away? Especially if the money was going to go somewhere other than Williams.

It is sad for Williams, but sponsors move around and teams generally have no problem with stealing a sponsor from someone else. I suspect this was more about Rokit leaving Williams first, vs. Mercedes courting them away?

Richard

[S griffin]

Indeed, we don’t know the full story. It’s the chicken and the egg. Did Rokit approach Merc or did Merc persuade Rokit? Either way you can’t blame the one that was approached, either one of them would have had a good deal presented to them

[peebee2]

Must admit surprised by that, although I recall Merc do have form for that. IIRC they massively undercut somebody else to poach the BlackBerry deal. It’s difficult to compete commercially with someone who already has a full budget and doesn’t need the money.

Poaching from your customer does seem pretty poor on the face of it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Must admit surprised by that, although I recall Merc do have form for that. IIRC they massively undercut somebody else to poach the BlackBerry deal. It’s difficult to compete commercially with someone who already has a full budget and doesn’t need the money.

Poaching from your customer does seem pretty poor on the face of it.

I remember Mercedes and Blackberry signing the sponsorship deal in 2013 but I don't remember anything about Mercedes poaching Blackberry from another team. I would have thought the deal with Rokit, will more likely be Rokit wanting to remain in F1 and therefore associating itself with currently the most successful team. It doesn't look good from a marketing perspective, if your logo is running around at the back of the field.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I remember Mercedes and Blackberry signing the sponsorship deal in 2013 but I don't remember anything about Mercedes poaching Blackberry from another team.

I can’t even remember which team was signing them, but the ratecard it was a 10 million deal and Merc came along and matched it, with all the same number of Paddock Club spots etc. for 2 million. Just because they could.

[chillibowl]

they were doing stuff with Hamilton and Mclaren before their Merc deal i think. i cant recall what the deal was but the one thing that stands out were some viral videos of LH using his BB to remotely drive his Mclaren.

i feel like they were also providing enterprise solutions, secure data communications networks etc and the like as opposed to branding on the car.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

they were doing stuff with Hamilton and Mclaren before their Merc deal i think. i cant recall what the deal was but the one thing that stands out were some viral videos of LH using his BB to remotely drive his Mclaren.

That seems to be the suggestion in an article published by the FT:

'Mercedes poached Mr Hamilton from rival McLaren at the end of last season as part of a concerted effort to keep pace with F1’s strongest teams – McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari.

Frank Boulben, BlackBerry’s chief marketing officer, said the brand and the team had matching strategies of recovery in their fields.
[...]
Mr Hamilton was also “a big part of the appeal”, Mr Boulben said.
'

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I can’t even remember which team was signing them, but the ratecard it was a 10 million deal and Merc came along and matched it, with all the same number of Paddock Club spots etc. for 2 million. Just because they could.

Mercedes didn't start winning WDCs and WCCs until the following year, so just because they could I don't think really enters into it. There needs to be some evidence Mercedes supposedly poached Blackberry from another team, if one is going to cast aspersions on the Mercedes/Rokit deal.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

they were doing stuff with Hamilton and Mclaren before their Merc deal i think. i cant recall what the deal was but the one thing that stands out were some viral videos of LH using his BB to remotely drive his Mclaren.

i feel like they were also providing enterprise solutions, secure data communications networks etc and the like as opposed to branding on the car.

That was in 2009.

https://youtu.be/0JY1sExko-U

[peebee2]

IIRC, and it might not have public domain, the disquiet was less that they poached the deal, more that they undercut all their proposals from other teams, by about 80%, potentially devaluing sponsorship across the whole paddock.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

IIRC, and it might not have public domain, the disquiet was less that they poached the deal, more that they undercut all their proposals from other teams, by about 80%, potentially devaluing sponsorship across the whole paddock.

If true...Wow! And why would they do that?

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Yes. Tough pill to swallow.


My perspective is that Mercedes (like everyone) has an advertising rate card. And if someone approaches them with a sponsorship deal, they should look at it. While we talk about teams like Mercedes and their deep pockets, they are not immune to questions of budget. Should Mercedes have turned them away? Especially if the money was going to go somewhere other than Williams.

It is sad for Williams, but sponsors move around and teams generally have no problem with stealing a sponsor from someone else. I suspect this was more about Rokit leaving Williams first, vs. Mercedes courting them away?

Richard

I magine that Rockit will get small branding on the Mercedes and drivers for the same sum that got them title at Williams, but it is no longer about branding, it is brand association and leverage. Rockit seems to market low cost phones, but maybe the Mercedes connection makes them seem premium or enables them to develop a premium market.

It actually makes Williams look worse as we all assumed (I imagine) that Williams terminated the deal for commercial reasons, but apparently it was Rockit who terminated (the assumption being for poor performance??).

Basically that is Sirotkin, Stroll, Orlen and Rockit backing all lost by Williams in the last couple of years, plus other sponsors Rexona, etc?

Williams will spin all of the above as a positive, but paints a poor picture.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

IIRC, and it might not have public domain, the disquiet was less that they poached the deal, more that they undercut all their proposals from other teams, by about 80%, potentially devaluing sponsorship across the whole paddock.

From what I've read, the deal was worth some US$ 12 million per year, over three years, with BlackBerry becoming the team's new official mobile computing partner. A major reason for the deal with Blackberry was security, as Mercedes found Android inherently not as secure.

If Mercedes did undercut other team's proposals, it possibly devalue sponsorship deals with other IT companies. However, other sponsorship deals with other companies, won't have the same criteria as the one between Mercedes and Blackberry, so I don't see the whole paddock being affected. Also, it doesn't make any sense to devalue any sponsorship, when sponsorship is F1's life blood. The predicament Williams is in, is very much to do with a lack of sponsorship.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

If true...Wow! And why would they do that?

Richard

Because if they got 2 million it would be 2 million less Mercedes would have to put in and somebody would get a pat on the head. The car was pretty empty of sponsors so space was no problem.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Because if they got 2 million it would be 2 million less Mercedes would have to put in and somebody would get a pat on the head. The car was pretty empty of sponsors so space was no problem.

That answers why the took them as a sponsor, but not why they would undercut by your 80% value. If that is the case, then Mercedes also left money on the table for no reason (which is contrary to your first point).

I think this strategy works if you are looking to actively inhibit sponsorship for other teams. Similar to buying up talent just to prevent competition from having access. I can understand that as a strategy in the best of times, but why would Mercedes try to fling competition totally out of the ring right now? They need teams in the sport, even if only as token competition!

I guess the real question is, who actually was in the running with Rokit and was shafted by this reported undercut on pricing? Was it teams who frankly are not a threat like McLaren, Racing Point, Alfa Romeo, AlphaTauri, Haas, Renault and Williams or was it Mercedes true competition of Ferrari and Red Bull?

Richard

[Adam43]

Maybe they undercut the highest proposal by 80%? But the next lowest by much less, or even not at all? Trying to make sense of that. You’d have thought that Merc could offer the same as someone else and they would get the deal over them based on the competitiveness. As you say why go so low.

Bu this isn’t in the public domain...

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

That answers why the took them as a sponsor, but not why they would undercut by your 80% value. If that is the case, then Mercedes also left money on the table for no reason (which is contrary to your first point).

I think this strategy works if you are looking to actively inhibit sponsorship for other teams. Similar to buying up talent just to prevent competition from having access. I can understand that as a strategy in the best of times, but why would Mercedes try to fling competition totally out of the ring right now? They need teams in the sport, even if only as token competition!

I guess the real question is, who actually was in the running with Rokit and was shafted by this reported undercut on pricing? Was it teams who frankly are not a threat like McLaren, Racing Point, Alfa Romeo, AlphaTauri, Haas, Renault and Williams or was it Mercedes true competition of Ferrari and Red Bull?

Richard

Sorry, no idea about Rokit.
I was just remembering the BlackBerry deal from years ago.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Maybe they undercut the highest proposal by 80%? But the next lowest by much less, or even not at all? Trying to make sense of that. You’d have thought that Merc could offer the same as someone else and they would get the deal over them based on the competitiveness. As you say why go so low.

Bu this isn’t in the public domain...

Why go so low? Because they had no real sponsors, we’re under pressure from board level to find some, didn’t have the contacts to work out what others had quoted and were naive.

[broadrun96]

Seems to me most of the whinging is how dare Mercedes sign them.

First, why in would you pay to be on the Williams when for the same rate you could be MB partner? It's not the position on the car, it's the street value. You get to put that in your product. That's business 101, if you don't get it, don't open a business.

Second, if Rokit left Williams then there's nothing MB did other than sign a free agent.

Third, Blackberry specifically said they were with Lewis. He left and they followed. Again basic business strategy, they wanted Lewis. He could have been with Peel F1 and their new smaller 3 wheeled car and they would have spent.

Fourth, if you can't keep a sponsor and allow an out clause, well poor performance means no more money. I'm not paying to be seen for 30 seconds and only when being lapped again and again.

Fifth, if you think MB is redesigning the livery for Rokit you're nuts. They're going to be a tiny sponsor in large pond. They're willing to pay to be lesser let them.

Sixth, Toto has zero ethical obligation to ignore a sponsor because Williams used to use them. Not his concern in the slightest. They left so again, free agent.

It appears the complaints are capitalism sucks. That's fine but don't pretend otherwise.