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Old 22 Jun 2019, 14:22 (Ref:3913483)   #51
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mark_l should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmark_l should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think one of the problems is the speed on the last lap of a SC period.

At the Donington Masters I saw some shambolic restarts with the leaders heading in to Redgate before the midfield had reached the middle of the chicane.

In my opinion, half way around the last lap the SC should hold a reduced pace, 30mph max, with cars forming up in single file. The leader is not allowed to accelerate from that pace until they have crossed the start finish line, no overtaking or overlapping by any competitor before they have crossed the start finish line. Any driver stepping out of the single file with a view to getting a jump at the line is deemed to have gained an advantage, same goes for any drivers holding back to generate a gap to the car in front.

Simple, slow and safe.
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Old 22 Jun 2019, 22:24 (Ref:3913578)   #52
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I think one of the problems is the speed on the last lap of a SC period.

At the Donington Masters I saw some shambolic restarts with the leaders heading in to Redgate before the midfield had reached the middle of the chicane.

In my opinion, half way around the last lap the SC should hold a reduced pace, 30mph max, with cars forming up in single file. The leader is not allowed to accelerate from that pace until they have crossed the start finish line, no overtaking or overlapping by any competitor before they have crossed the start finish line. Any driver stepping out of the single file with a view to getting a jump at the line is deemed to have gained an advantage, same goes for any drivers holding back to generate a gap to the car in front.

Simple, slow and safe.
That is how it is defined in the Blue Book Mark, dependant on the size of the track, either 50% or 25% of the lap should be behind the safety car with the lights out on the lap that the SC will leave the circuit. So, when I have clerked Dony, I would instruct the SC at Coppice to "lights out" and then would expect him to back up the field and bring them down to a reasonable speed so that they were all tight for the restart. Now, depending on the volume of the field is dependant on whats left coming round the Esses as the race is restarted but it should be noted that in normal situations, the racing should not start again until the competitor is passing the start line (see blue book)
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 08:56 (Ref:3913646)   #53
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Spoon feeding? There are many intelligent people who are daunted by the BB. Why not publish it in a form that's accessible to all?
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 09:28 (Ref:3913652)   #54
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Spoon feeding? There are many intelligent people who are daunted by the BB. Why not publish it in a form that's accessible to all?
There is a lot of information in it but t IS acessible to all. What bit cant you find and where cant you find it? its online, a word can be searched online... as well as that as a compeitor you get sent one every year it is not rocket science Max
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 14:55 (Ref:3913718)   #55
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Spoon feeding? There are many intelligent people who are daunted by the BB. Why not publish it in a form that's accessible to all?



I may be mistaken, but haven't commented in earlier threads that you have the app on your phone so you can access the BB at the track?


I'm with Claire - the main problem is drivers not bothering to read the regs or the finals, or pay attention to the drivers' briefinC......where with CSCC at least the SC and Code 60 procedures are rehearsed. (I actually prefer Code 60 to SC in most cases )
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 17:20 (Ref:3913751)   #56
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FGS why the flaming? As a reasonably competent social media marketer, I merely thought that how the rules work would make interesting and informative content that may actually attract readers. Rather than just profiles of 10 year old kids, my suggestion for interesting insight into the workings of the organisation would engage the wider stakeholders.

If you don't get it, don't worry.

FWIW I do have the app, and a link to the Blue PDF, on my phone. It's great engagement and the first step for MSUK.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 19:51 (Ref:3913779)   #57
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... as well as that as a competitor you get sent one every year it is not rocket science Max
er, not any more we don't !

I rang MSUK after my last licence renewal and was told I can buy a hard copy for IIRC £32. The cynic in me concluded the officials got fed up with competitors appearing in front of them at meetings holding a copy of said book and making certain officials feel daft (especially scrutineers).

The trouble with handling, reading and understanding online information is you cannot put fingers and thumbs in the various book references and cross-refer from one to the other, which is often necessary given the randomness and complexity of the layout of the BB.
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 20:13 (Ref:3913786)   #58
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er, not any more we don't !

I rang MSUK after my last licence renewal and was told I can buy a hard copy for IIRC £32. The cynic in me concluded the officials got fed up with competitors appearing in front of them at meetings holding a copy of said book and making certain officials feel daft (especially scrutineers).

The trouble with handling, reading and understanding online information is you cannot put fingers and thumbs in the various book references and cross-refer from one to the other, which is often necessary given the randomness and complexity of the layout of the BB.


David, I got one this year as a competitor, I got one as a clerk and then got three for the club! seriously, I have a spare (or two) if you want one!!! ha ha (actually there is a position of Club Secretary going... if ya fancy the position!) .. or go online to the PDF... and press PRINT

I stand by what I have said, even if you dont get a physical one anymore, theres the regs and the Supps PLUS the briefing... if you cant work out the Safety Car procedure from the briefing... you should not be racing.
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Old 23 Jun 2019, 21:54 (Ref:3913797)   #59
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eeeeee, you're lucky;
we had to eat gravel just to get a glimpse of a Blue Book...

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Old 23 Jun 2019, 22:45 (Ref:3913798)   #60
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eeeeee, you're lucky;
we had to eat gravel just to get a glimpse of a Blue Book...

Luxury !!! we used to have to get up half an hour before we went to bed the night before... just to sniff the blue book... and you try telling that to the kids today and they wont believe ya
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 07:32 (Ref:3913850)   #61
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Surely what this discussion (and the other about driving standards) clearly brings into focus is the need for one consistent and competently applied way of doing things. I was at a briefing recently when the CoC threatened to endorse the licences of competitors who did not catch the train under a safety car. The rules as laid down by the FIA and copied by MUK are clear and if they cannot be understood then should that should that competitor be racing? If the lack of intellectual rigour means they don’t understand the Blue Electronically Downloadable Regulatory missive then why would they suddenly grasp a different way of doing things when delivered in a 5 minute briefing?
Consistency is and should be the beginning and end of it.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 07:41 (Ref:3913855)   #62
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I would suggest that waiting until the control line to continue racing is fair - after all if the field has closed up as it is supposed to have done most competitors will be substantially closer to the front than they were - and easily controlled and checked. This is a process that has been developed over a number of years, it should allow the marshals to do their work in a defined period and should be simple process. Having seen the marshals have to step away from a rescue because there were actually two bunches of cars not one, that safety car period was at least two laps longer than it need have been.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 10:24 (Ref:3913899)   #63
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I would suggest that waiting until the control line to continue racing is fair - after all if the field has closed up as it is supposed to have done most competitors will be substantially closer to the front than they were - and easily controlled and checked. This is a process that has been developed over a number of years, it should allow the marshals to do their work in a defined period and should be simple process. Having seen the marshals have to step away from a rescue because there were actually two bunches of cars not one, that safety car period was at least two laps longer than it need have been.
That’s the crux, isn’t it. It needs every driver in the race to close up behind the car in front and form a train. As you say in your previous post, the idea is not complicated.......
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 11:28 (Ref:3913905)   #64
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That’s the crux, isn’t it. It needs every driver in the race to close up behind the car in front and form a train. As you say in your previous post, the idea is not complicated.......

Two thoughts that occur to me as a mostly impartial observer.


Firstly in certain (relatively rare) categories there may be concerns about tyre temperatures and the speed of the train affecting the ability to maintain those temperatures in preparation for a mass descent into the first corner after the restart line.


In most cases one would not expect those competing to lag a long way behind the train although in the train attempts to keep the tyres hot might in themselves prove to be problematic. (Weaving)


However I think even in this situation there may be some exceptions to the expectation that all driver will both desire and be able to catch the train. Especially if they need to be 'released' to do so if the SC has not intervened immediately before the leader.




Secondly, and mostly in the categories where tyre temperatures are not that much of a concern, the normal speed disparities between cars in different classes (let alone different driving ability and driver objectives for participation) may mean it is quite difficult for a slowish car to make up time. If the driver is of the opinion that they need to be seen (from the lap times)to be going significantly slower than usual, the chances of catching up within a remaining race period might be slight.


How one might deal with that from a race perspective is challenging enough but in the context of using a SC to provide marshals and other recovery services with some decent chunks of no-risk (from competitors) recovery time may also need to be considered.



How about something like flagging them into the pits to then re-join the back of the train? Not a great idea I'll admit but perhaps a starting point to identify something that works better for everyone including the speed challenged (for whatever reason that challenge might be.)


Tricky in a 15 or 20 minute race whichever way one looks at it.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 11:58 (Ref:3913911)   #65
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Surely what this discussion (and the other about driving standards) clearly brings into focus is the need for one consistent and competently applied way of doing things. I was at a briefing recently when the CoC threatened to endorse the licences of competitors who did not catch the train under a safety car. The rules as laid down by the FIA and copied by MUK are clear and if they cannot be understood then should that should that competitor be racing? If the lack of intellectual rigour means they don’t understand the Blue Electronically Downloadable Regulatory missive then why would they suddenly grasp a different way of doing things when delivered in a 5 minute briefing?
Consistency is and should be the beginning and end of it.
Agreed, totally, consistency ... and the general regulations on use of a safety car are written in black and white on Page 290/291


"All competing cars, when notified of the Safety Car intervention (by the flag signals, “SC” boards, or by any other means) will reduce speed and line up behind the Safety Car, no more than 5 car lengths apart, and maintaining the same speed as it."

That, as far as I interpret it, is telling you exactly to catch the bloody train up (if you have space in front of you more than five cars length.... then you need to catch up until you don't... simples )

You are a very competent driver Simon and you understand that principle, the purpose of the briefing is very simple, some are not, some are racing for the first time or, in a race for the first time where a safety car is being used to neutralise a race, they are not first time racers as such may not even be a novice , but, they may have done sprints all the time and are now entering a longer race, also there may be something particular about that event or that circuit which meeds to be pointed out in respect of the use of the Safety car, its not rocket science and you cannot "catch all" with the blue book, thats why they are called THE GENERAL REGULATIONS and not the Supplementary ones!
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 11:59 (Ref:3913912)   #66
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That’s the crux, isn’t it. It needs every driver in the race to close up behind the car in front and form a train. As you say in your previous post, the idea is not complicated.......
exactly
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:10 (Ref:3913914)   #67
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So exclude the people who cannot read their regulations. Two, three races, max and the message will get through.
Briefings should be to confirm that competitors have read their regulations, both general and supplemental. The best briefings are those that are short, concise and precise.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:19 (Ref:3913915)   #68
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So exclude the people who cannot read their regulations. Two, three races, max and the message will get through.
Briefings should be to confirm that competitors have read their regulations, both general and supplemental. The best briefings are those that are short, concise and precise.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:31 (Ref:3913917)   #69
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So here is a slightly different question. Who is supposed to do what if the safety car train does not close up satisfactorily? Can competitors make their own call and overtake the car in front? Presumably not. Should race control put out a driving standards flag followed, if necessary and there is time, by a black flag? If not why not?

Last edited by one-two; 24 Jun 2019 at 12:44.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:33 (Ref:3913918)   #70
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So exclude the people who cannot read their regulations. Two, three races, max and the message will get through.
Briefings should be to confirm that competitors have read their regulations, both general and supplemental. The best briefings are those that are short, concise and precise.

I have long wanted to pull a little stunt at a drivers briefing and ask if they have read the Supp Regs for the event. Then I'd ask those who brought with them a Hot Wheels car to come to the front. The looks of confusion from those who didn't see in the regs that there was a requirement for drivers to bring a toy car with them to the drivers briefing should be enough to get the point across.
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:39 (Ref:3913920)   #71
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I have long wanted to pull a little stunt at a drivers briefing and ask if they have read the Supp Regs for the event. Then I'd ask those who brought with them a Hot Wheels car to come to the front. The looks of confusion from those who didn't see in the regs that there was a requirement for drivers to bring a toy car with them to the drivers briefing should be enough to get the point across.


THATS THE WAY TO DO IT!!!
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:45 (Ref:3913922)   #72
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So here is a slightly question. Who is supposed to do what if the safety car train does not close up satisfactorily? Can competitors make their own call and overtake the car in front? Presumably not. Should race control put out a driving standards flag followed, if necessary and there is time, by a black flag? If not why not?
Well firstly, why is that car not catching up?.. that would need to be identified... .. if for example a car was soo slow because it was in "trouble" and it was stopping or limping to the pits etc, then common sense prevails The clerk may ask the team if they can communicate to the driver (PTC radio etc) to ask why he/she is not catching up, a lot depends on the amount of time here as well but, to quote the blue book

"A time penalty or Drive Through Penalty may be imposed on any Driver who, in the opinion of the Clerk of the Course, unnecessarily overtakes another Driver during these laps."

So, you better have a good reason to lol
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:51 (Ref:3913923)   #73
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I guess the point is, to go back to Mike's original example, why isn't a drive through penalty imposed on a car that is going too slowly. I'm not bothered if it is going as fast as it can - get it out of the way
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:54 (Ref:3913924)   #74
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I guess the point is, to go back to Mike's original example, why isn't a drive through penalty imposed on a car that is going too slowly. I'm not bothered if it is going as fast as it can - get it out of the way

Its a good call.... but if its going slowly all the time, a drive through aint really gonna do much penalty wise is it!
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Old 24 Jun 2019, 12:56 (Ref:3913925)   #75
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THATS THE WAY TO DO IT!!!

All I ask is that you send me a copy of the regs, and video of the briefing that you do it in.
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