British F1 Championship?

[csirl]

British Formula 1 Championship.



I’ve been reading these forums for past year or so and regard them as interesting and informative. This is the first time I’ve ever posted.

These forums have a lot of posts about F1 favouring certain teams e.g. being pro/anti Ferrari/McLaren etc. I don’t want to discuss individual teams or individual incidents, but rather concentrate on the wider picture and a trend that has been emerging. I’m also going to contribute a non-UK point of view – one which is overlooked by a lot of UK based F1 fans.

My question is whether or not F1 has a British bias and whether or not this is in danger of killing the series.

Look at the evidence.

Of the 10 F1 teams, 6 are based in the UK. My estimate is that, give or take one, there will be 9 UK and 4 non-UK teams in F1 in 2010. And, if current trends continue, this ratio will get more biased towards the UK teams beyond 2010. Historically, when you look at F1, its always had multiple teams from France, Italy, Germany and some from elsewhere. British teams have always been a very important part of F1 and the sport is deeply in debt to them in terms of their contribution to F1, but, up to the Mosley/Ecclestone era, they have been a minority part of the sport.

Look at the current applicants for the vacant spots. Very high percentage of British teams including some which, at this moment in time, have little or no substance to them. These applicants seem to be from the British F1 old boys network – with connections to the British F1 scene or Mosley and Ecclestone, who are also part of the British old boys network. If you were to pick who you think were the next best teams in single seater racing outside the current F1 teams, a lot of these applicants would be far down the list. The question has to be asked as to why some of the French, Italian, German, American, Japanese etc. teams who participate in other series and have a track record of success are not among the entry list?

Getting back to the current crop of teams.

It appears that some non-UK manufacturers seem to have figured out that you will not survive long term in F1 unless you participate in the British old boys network. Why do you think Mercedes are with McLaren? Given their resources and history, it would make a lot more sense for them to enter in their own right. Why did Renault, who traditionally entered their own team, have to buy the British Toleman/Benetton team to get back into F1? Why does Austrian Red Bull have to go with the former Jaguar team instead of setting its own in Austria?

People may talk about the availability of experience F1 people in the UK and talent of UK engineers and designers. And make the argument that it would be difficult to find this expertise elsewhere. But, while the UK has some great F1 talent, you have to ask yourself how this happened? Is it that the UK has people because this is where the teams are based rather than because no other country in the world has the talent or resources to produce a F1 car? I think this is a weak argument.

Now look at the future?

While all this may be great for the F1 industry in the UK, it is not sustainable. What interest would non-UK TV stations, sponsors, fans etc. have in watching what is essentially the British F1 Championship being run on overseas tracks (ironically it may not even race in Britain in future years)? The interest may be there now, but it is going to decline very quickly if the international audience cannot relate to the sport in future years. The only thing keeping the international audience hanging in there right now is Ferrari. Outside the UK, F1 is often seen as Ferrari versus the British. If Ferrari were to go, the international audience, sponsors, TV stations would drop F1 very quickly.

A lot of F1 fans often have a go at US motorsports fans who cannot see beyond their own borders – the regard US motorsport as being too parochial and laugh at the notion of either Indycar or Nascar drivers being referred to as being the best in the world. There is a real real danger that F1 is going down the same path and will become a parochial British series rather than the pinnacle of world motorsport.

Sorry if this sounds a bit like a rant, but I really do believe that F1 has no long term future unless you have a balanced mix of competitive teams from most of the major motorsports countries. A genuine world series would have maybe 2-3 teams from each of UK, Italy, Germany, France and USA plus teams from places like Japan, Brazil, Spain, Australia etc.

The big question is has anyone in F1 got the vision to see this or have they been consumed by the old boys network.?

[neiltb]

where to start, I'll pick a couple as I don't have the time.

Red Bull bought the Jag team from ford, lock stock and barrel. They could move the factory to Austria, they haven't. They bought it for the facilities and the people, not as part of some grand conspiracy.

I live in Canada, I don't believe Ferrari departing would cause TSN to pull coverage.

[Marbot]

F1 as long been mostly about British teams,but that's not as a result of any regulation.All teams from all countries should be welcome.If they're given the chance that is.

[JABWOA]

Look at A1GP - teams from around the world - but most are managed by the same company (or it was the case the last couple of seasons.) Logistics is a key factor, particularly with F1 still being European centric despite rounds around the world. I look on with interest at USF1 with thier aim to manage the team stateside with a small workshop in Europe.

Meanwhile, A1GP has places to race, tv rights in place and a strong link with Ferrari... should Ferrari and friends need a place to race in 2010.

[Andrew2001]

Very intersting thoughts, I had not thought of the link between Ferrari and A1GP....

[climb]

Let's be serious, Ferrari's link to A1 is of barely business nature.

None of the F1 team could care less about moving out to A1

[Spudy]

There are a lot of points to address there.

I think there are a lot of UK teams and UK people in all levels of motorsport because of numerous reasons.

I think the main reasons are the UK is kind of the spiritual home of motor racing. I know Ferrari has a huge pedigree and other nations like Japan do as well. But in terms of racing the UK is the home of motor racing really.

Most foreign teams employ UK staff as well and there must be a reason for this. I guess you would have to ask them for a definitive answer. Its probably because they are some very good motor sport people in the UK. Maybe its cultural thing as well, at lot people in the UK dream of working in racing which may lead to a lot more teams over here. Perhaps in foreign countries its not such a huge thing?? I don't know.

So perhaps that is the answer, there is a lot of UK presence in F1 and new teams because as a nation we're good at it and a lot people want to do it in the UK.

I don't think it has anything to do with Max of Bernie to be honest.

[bravo]

With the very real possibility of no British GP next year, I'd say F1 is biased against the UK in real terms, despite the huge ties the sport historically has with the country.

[JamesH]

Regarding the original post - interesting perspective, but the problem with ideas of having teams from around the world, is that there *are no* F1 quality teams from around the world, apart from the one already in F1 - Ferrari, BMW etc. There is also a reason why 'foreign' teams are based in the UK (Renault Toyota etc) - engineering skills.

Given the current huge cost of setting up a team, and where most of all the experienced engineers already live, it would be very difficult to change the geographical distribution of teams.

The budget cap may help.

[Ingsy]

Woah - lots of points to answer - too many in fact!

Why did Red Bull buy Jaguar, and Renault buy Benetton? Probably because it's quicker, cheaper and easier to buy an existing team than set one up from scratch. I think it really is as basic as that.

As for it being a "World Championship" - surely what gives this credance is where the drivers come from, rather than the teams?

[csirl]

One difficulty that F1 may have with a breakaway FOTA initiated series is that the split will be UK (F1) versus non-UK (FOTA).

F1 will likely have Williams, McLaren, Force India plus the UK based applicants.

FOTA series would start with Ferrari, Toyota, BMW, Torro Rosso and Renault & Red Bull teams which though UK based are not UK owned. Within a couple of years, they are likely to be joined by the likes of Penske, Newman Haas, Andretti Green from US (due to slow death of Indycars) and some of the better mainland European outfits e.g. DAMs, ART, Dallara, Zakspeed etc. I also think that this situation would make Mercedes re-think and look to allign with a FOTA team rather than a F1 team.

If this happens, the FOTA series will be many times more attractive to international support, sponsorship, drivers etc. than the F1 series which would wither away.

Even if the split does not cause this, I think many of the non-UK teams will withdraw over the next 2-3 years and in time someone somewhere will set up a new internationally focused series, enticing some of these teams back into the sport. Time may be bad now, but the recession wont last forever. Big business will want to be involved in international motorsport in the future.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by csirl

Historically, when you look at F1, its always had multiple teams from France, Italy, Germany and some from elsewhere. British teams have always been a very important part of F1 and the sport is deeply in debt to them in terms of their contribution to F1, but, up to the Mosley/Ecclestone era, they have been a minority part of the sport.

Not really. 1962. BRM, Lotus, Cooper, Lola, Brabham, all British. Ferrari and Porsche were the only non-British marques to take it seriously. OK, there was de Tomaso and the half-British ENB, but they had about one race each.

Or take a look at 1967, for example. Brabham, Lotus, BRM, Cooper, McLaren all British. Honda, 90% British. Eagle, Anglo-American. Matra had only just started. So the only non-British entity was Ferrari. And many people consider that a golden age.

Fast-forward to 1974. Loads more teams. McLaren, Tyrrell, Lotus, Brabham, March, BRM, Shadow, Surtees, Williams, Ensign, Hesketh, Hill-Lola. All British. Apart from one-race projects from Amon, Penske Maki and Parnelli, there was only Ferrari from outside Britain.

Or how about 1980? Just before the Berniemax era starts. Williams, Tyrrell, Brabham, McLaren, Lotus, Ensign, Shadow, Fittipaldi, Arrows and RAM. From outside Britain you had Ferrari, ATS (who in over 100 races never finished in the top 4), Osella (who in 10 years scored points twice), Alfa, Renault and Ligier. Osella and Ligier used British engines, Alfa were a joke within three years and Renault did not see out the decade.

Since they put the engines in the back motor racing has been British-dominated. Nothing to do with the Mosleystone era. It's a kind of virtuous circle. The knowledge comes to Britain, the industry is ensconced, if you want to move teams you don't want to shift country, so you find another team in Britain. Look at Toyota. They've spent the national debt of a major third world debtor on F1 and couldn't win a fiver from Trigger. Partly because IMO they set up in Germany. There's no way they could poach experienced staff without forcing them to move to Germany. There wasn't sufficient expertise within Germany. It's taken Sauber 20 years to win an F1 race. Having to bring people up from new. Compare Honda. Even with a clean slate and clueless owners they've ended up, eventually, with a dominant car. Bit late though.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by csirl

One difficulty that F1 may have with a breakaway FOTA initiated series is that the split will be UK (F1) versus non-UK (FOTA).

F1 will likely have Williams, McLaren, Force India plus the UK based applicants.

FOTA series would start with Ferrari, Toyota, BMW, Torro Rosso and Renault & Red Bull teams which though UK based are not UK owned. Within a couple of years, they are likely to be joined by the likes of Penske, Newman Haas, Andretti Green from US (due to slow death of Indycars) and some of the better mainland European outfits e.g. DAMs, ART, Dallara, Zakspeed etc. I also think that this situation would make Mercedes re-think and look to align with a FOTA team rather than a F1 team.

Penske are already thought to be tied to one of the F1 entries submitted last week. Dallara are definitely involved in Campos' proposed entry, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd have something to do with N.Technology's entry if Compos doesn't get in but N.Tech does. Ferrari are seemingly tied to F1 whether they like it or not, especially since they lost their court case. On DAMs and ART, once the French government stopped making French companies sponsor Ligier, they faltered. Prost didn't have much support either, these are probably the reasons why DAMs and ART would rather keep out of F1.

Originally Posted by csirl

If this happens, the FOTA series will be many times more attractive to international support, sponsorship, drivers etc. than the F1 series which would wither away.

I'm puzzled as to why you think a FOTA series would be so attractive to the likes of these smaller operations from around the world. The whole point to the FIA's current hard line stance to lower costs is so more organisations which aren't manufacturer backed can get into F1.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be glad come the 12th of June as USPGE are (unfortunately) almost certainly guaranteed an entry, at least one of the Spanish entries will get in, leaving (if, as they most probably will, all the FOTA teams get in) just one spot for one of the British teams, most probably Prodrive. If any of the FOTA boys decide to go down with their ship, then Lola, the remaining Spanish hopeful and/or N.Technology will get in.

[chillibowl]

i suppose its less relevant now then in the past but there are no engine suppliers in the UK. regardless of where their actual HQ are located or where their license is issued from, wouldn't that make most teams of split nationality?

although one could view Mosley's desire to have everyone running a Cosworth next year as an attempt to break the supply of non-UK built engines which as we all know are consistently bringing the sport into disrepute.

[csirl]

Campos, Penske, Dallara etc. may be linked to some of the current applicants, but you should remember that these are only applicants. There is a big jump from being an applicant to getting accepted and then actually putting a car on the grid. A lot of these applicants are just paper ideas and a lot of these companies/teams are just hedging their bets by associating with entrants. And with the UK bias, there is certainly no guarantee that Campos, Penske, Dallara etc. will be accepted anyway.

Smart money suggests that the more solid applicants i.e. those with a track record like Campos, Lola, Penske, Dallara etc. are prepared to go with either series depending on how things pan out.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i suppose its less relevant now then in the past but there are no engine suppliers in the UK. regardless of where their actual HQ are located or where their license is issued from, wouldn't that make most teams of split nationality?

although one could view Mosley's desire to have everyone running a Cosworth next year as an attempt to break the supply of non-UK built engines which as we all know are consistently bringing the sport into disrepute.

Sorry, but I thought the Mercedes engine used by McLaren, Brawn and Force India was manufactured at Brixworth in Northamptonshire in what used to be the Ilmor factory?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Sorry, but I thought the Mercedes engine used by McLaren, Brawn and Force India was manufactured at Brixworth in Northamptonshire in what used to be the Ilmor factory?

yeah you're totally right, my bad. just assumed that they were built in Germany. should have checked google first.

[Thundersports]

Aurora! Will Melchester Racing be making a comeback..........

[jab]

Originally Posted by csirl

Smart money suggests that the more solid applicants i.e. those with a track record like Campos, Lola, Penske, Dallara etc. are prepared to go with either series depending on how things pan out.

Why would they go with a FOTA series? A FOTA series would be dominated by manufacturers with the insignificant little privateers shunted to the sidelines so they can't do any PR damage by upstaging the manufacturers like Brawn are doing this year. They'd be also-rans. Might as well be a big fish in a small pond rather than vice versa, as Williams and Force India have decided

Besides, FOTA have already said they won't form a breakaway

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by csirl

And with the UK bias, there is certainly no guarantee that Campos, Penske, Dallara etc. will be accepted anyway.

Firstly, perceived British bias.

I don't think Penske will get in via Nick Wirth or anyone else because there's be so little preparation and/or intent shown by them. USGPE are almost 100% guaranteed an entry, they've been working on this for years and are probably one of the reasons Max has been so confident in banging his budget cap drum. No, there are no guarantees for anyone else, but I'm personally confident that Epsilon Euskadi or Campos will get in, but they face tough competition from Prodrive and Lola, not because they're British, but because they're bloody good organisations with an extremely strong pedigree in the sport.

Originally Posted by csirl

Smart money suggests that the more solid applicants i.e. those with a track record like Campos, Lola, Penske, Dallara etc. are prepared to go with either series depending on how things pan out.

Depending how what things pan out? I can only see the FIA winning out on this. Even FOTA can see which way the gamble has gone...

Just to go back to the main issue you bring up, I don't think the vast majority of F1 viewers really know/care where the majority of teams are from, so long as there is a variety of drivers from around the world, which there are and there will be for the foreseeable future.

[jab]

Originally Posted by the sniper

I don't think Penske will get in via Nick Wirth or anyone else because there's be so little preparation and/or intent shown by them.

I think that's harsh. Just because they haven't gone public like the rest doesn't mean they haven't been in negotiations with the FIA over this. Superfund have been and yet that was unknown for months until they went public

I think Penske, if they've entered, would be a dead cert to get on the grid. With Wirth, they have the facilities, they have history, they have plenty of money, they have the expertise - they are the exact sort of team this is aimed it

[JABWOA]

Interest to read over the weekend that FOTA are talking with MotoGP - mainly with thier head guy who took in the FIM in a similar way and won apparently. Maybe a 2x4 meeting with the best in two and four wheels? Hardly likely but still...

[Lotusonpole]

I think one reason is the framework of motor racing in UK from grassroots to F1.
Motor racing here spans a huge variety of Formula of all types etc, and has naturally been made home to teams because, one reason maybe, of so much logistically being here, (Makes sense if your base is just down the road from where the next race is).
Also one might ask why so, so many non-UK drivers come to Britain to start their motor racing careers here rather than in their home countries?

Interesting post csirl, and welcome.

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Not really. 1962. BRM, Lotus, Cooper, Lola, Brabham, all British. Ferrari and Porsche were the only non-British marques to take it seriously. OK, there was de Tomaso and the half-British ENB, but they had about one race each.

Or take a look at 1967, for example. Brabham, Lotus, BRM, Cooper, McLaren all British. Honda, 90% British. Eagle, Anglo-American. Matra had only just started. So the only non-British entity was Ferrari. And many people consider that a golden age.

Fast-forward to 1974. Loads more teams. McLaren, Tyrrell, Lotus, Brabham, March, BRM, Shadow, Surtees, Williams, Ensign, Hesketh, Hill-Lola. All British. Apart from one-race projects from Amon, Penske Maki and Parnelli, there was only Ferrari from outside Britain.

Or how about 1980? Just before the Berniemax era starts. Williams, Tyrrell, Brabham, McLaren, Lotus, Ensign, Shadow, Fittipaldi, Arrows and RAM. From outside Britain you had Ferrari, ATS (who in over 100 races never finished in the top 4), Osella (who in 10 years scored points twice), Alfa, Renault and Ligier. Osella and Ligier used British engines, Alfa were a joke within three years and Renault did not see out the decade.

Plus ATS, Penske, Parnelli and Amon were all based in the UK anyway, despite their foreign links. Hmm just thinking where they were, ATS were at Bicester, Penske of course down the road in Poole at Graham Mcraes old place that was Len Terrys before I think, Parnelli were up in Norfolk but I cant think where Amon were - south coast maybe? Goodwood way? Goes to show how UK centric it was - even Maki had a British base to run the cars from.

[Born Racer]

This just helps to show the absurdity of the possibility of the loss of the British Grand Prix.