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Old 15 Mar 2017, 08:04 (Ref:3718725)   #401
chunder
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Let's be honest, there has never, ever been much appetite for penalising drivers for this sort of stuff.

Only if they do something utterly out of order like Mertens did a few years ago or Schanche in 92.

I think there should perhaps be a penalty system so that you are allowed 3 or 4 minors, then you are given time penalties on your heat, or start at the back in the final or something.

Some of the driving among this lot is awful, Bakkerud can't seem to pass anyone with ramming then gets out all smiley and everyone forgives him, Doran was guilty, but seemed to have tidied it up a bit. Heikkinen is very tough. And Hansen needs some advice from his father to understand that barging people about rarely wins you much. Kenneth never really did it much and won a bunch of titles is just as tough classes.

The cars are now seemingly built with very flimsy panels that peel off very easily, makes the cars look tatty, either that or there is just a lot more contact.

Also, the tracks don't help, I think IMG actively encourage action areas in joker laps etc to prompt contact aswell, which you might expect from them!!
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Old 15 Mar 2017, 21:03 (Ref:3718890)   #402
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Do the same ECU regs apply as last year? So lots of EuroRX drivers can't drive in WorldRX as the ECU is really expensive?

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Old 16 Mar 2017, 17:41 (Ref:3719125)   #403
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Do the same ECU regs apply as last year? So lots of EuroRX drivers can't drive in WorldRX as the ECU is really expensive?

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Jup is the same and yes it is expensive.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 17:47 (Ref:3719126)   #404
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Lol, easiest money anyone ever made!!
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 17:51 (Ref:3719128)   #405
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tbtstt should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridtbtstt should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Do the same ECU regs apply as last year? So lots of EuroRX drivers can't drive in WorldRX as the ECU is really expensive?
Relative to the cost of a Supercar, a replacement ECU and loom isn't that expensive!
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 18:29 (Ref:3719147)   #406
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Relative to the cost of a Supercar, a replacement ECU and loom isn't that expensive!


Don't know, how much are we talking about?
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 19:26 (Ref:3719165)   #407
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It probably is if you have to pay what you are told
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 19:41 (Ref:3719169)   #408
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That seems a bit rich coming from some of those guys who also enjoy getting their elbows out. I hope that it doesn't detract from the spectacle. As said above, door handling is good and makes it interesting. Clearly punting people off is wrong and should be punished
Really? They're the 4 fairest drivers in World RX I would say. I don't think it'll detract from the spectacle, but should reward good driving and not leaning, ramming etc!

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Some of the driving among this lot is awful, Bakkerud can't seem to pass anyone with ramming then gets out all smiley and everyone forgives him, Doran was guilty, but seemed to have tidied it up a bit. Heikkinen is very tough. And Hansen needs some advice from his father to understand that barging people about rarely wins you much. Kenneth never really did it much and won a bunch of titles is just as tough classes.
Couldn't agree more chunder - Timerzyanov should be added to that list too. World RX was becoming bumper cars, when it should still be racing first, contact allowed.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 19:54 (Ref:3719174)   #409
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Originally Posted by tbtstt View Post
Relative to the cost of a Supercar, a replacement ECU and loom isn't that expensive!
Expensive is relative...
Any idea on € or £?
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 09:50 (Ref:3719319)   #410
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Expensive is relative...
Any idea on € or £?
I had a quick look and I can't see the exact requirements in the regulations.

Race Tech magazine had a feature on ECU/software usage a while ago, I'll find the magazine later as I'm sure that contained enough detail to ascertain a rough price.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 16:08 (Ref:3719406)   #411
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But if you change ECU you need also to re-tune the engine I assume.
But also assume if you have a WRX ECU you can still take part in ERX.

EKS and Munnich testing in South-Africa...no wonder costs have skyrocketed.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 16:13 (Ref:3719407)   #412
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Rallycross has always been expensive to run cars in, but with testing and the like now, it is being turned into a manufacturer series. Kind of a problem when most of them teams are still largely dealer based rather than actual factory based.

And also makes being private utterly pointless, wish is IMG's intention.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 16:23 (Ref:3719413)   #413
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But if you change ECU you need also to re-tune the engine I assume.
Yeah, the engine would need to be mapped on the new ECU. I'm not au fait with the specifics, but I would think there is a certain amount of commonality between ECU software, so the previous map would be copied across and then fine tuned.
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 09:02 (Ref:3719554)   #414
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I had a read through the Race Tech article and another look at the regulations. The Race Tech article makes for much easier reading, but all the raw information relating to ECU's and software can be found in the "Sporting Regulations for the World Rallycross Championship", here:

http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/120
(Under the "Sporting Regulation" tab)

The relevant regulations can be found under Sections 10.5 and 10.6, specifically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiA Sporting Regulations for the World Rallycross Championship

10.5 Data acquisition system approved by the FIA

10.5.1 The Teams and permanent individual Competitors must acquire and use the complete FIA data acquisition system as defined by the FIA; all the non-permanent Drivers must acquire and install the wiring and sensors of the data acquisition system as defined by the FIA. Data acquisition units will be allocated at random to these Drivers at each Competition venue upon the instructions of the technical delegate.

10.5.2 This system must be used during the Championship and serves exclusively to store the data acquired. It must be installed in strict compliance with the relevant instructions and must work at all times during the Competition. It is the responsibility of each Competitor to ensure that the system is working properly.

10.5.3 All costs connected with the installation, checking, servicing and updating of the system will be borne entirely by the Competitors.
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Originally Posted by FiA Sporting Regulations for the World Rallycross Championship

10.6 Electronic System

10.6.1 The software of the ECU must be approved and homologated by the FIA. Only FIA softwares homologated before 28.02.2017 are eligible. Only 1 version of software per type of ECU can be homologated. No more than 2 types of ECU per ECU manufacturer can be homologated.
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Originally Posted by FiA Sporting Regulations for the World Rallycross Championship

10.6.6 All cars must use a homologated ECU system, which must be connected to the data acquisition system approved by the FIA (see Article 10.5).
10.6.1 states that, as long as your ECU and the software is homologated, then it is fine for continued use. One assumes that all the major ECU manufacturers would be keen to apply for homologation as it ensures ongoing use of their product. Having a quick look at the sites for the three motorsport ECU manufacturers I know, all three mention FiA homologation against certain products, so there seems to be some choice as to which ECU you opt for.

Considering the above, I do wonder if some of the cost complaints that have been voiced are related to the cost of the additional data acquisition system (10.5), rather than the engine management.

Of course if the ECU fitted is not homologated, then you are looking at the cost of both a replacement ECU and the data acquisition system. Notably the regulations do state that the main loom is free, so it would be a case of modifying the existing loom for a replacement ECU rather than having to rip out the old one and start again. As for rough cost, I see the MoTeC M150 is actually offered as a World Rallycross package and looks to be around the $5000 mark. That's not peanuts, but relative to the cost of a Supercar, it's not that severe, is it?
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 09:59 (Ref:3719559)   #415
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Of course if the ECU fitted is not homologated, then you are looking at the cost of both a replacement ECU and the data acquisition system. Notably the regulations do state that the main loom is free, so it would be a case of modifying the existing loom for a replacement ECU rather than having to rip out the old one and start again. As for rough cost, I see the MoTeC M150 is actually offered as a [URL="http://www.motec.com/FIARallycross2016/FIARallycross2016-O/#FIARALLYCROSS2016"
World Rallycross package[/URL] and looks to be around the $5000 mark. That's not peanuts, but relative to the cost of a Supercar, it's not that severe, is it?
For the guys in WRX it is nothing really compared to total costs. Relative to the costs of what FIA/IMG wants for the entry fee and other stuff it is not much either. For example WRX drivers are required this year to use a special seat with a price around €8 400, £7 300 or $9 000.
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 10:06 (Ref:3719562)   #416
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Jesus, that's more than my Octavia VRS cost
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 10:29 (Ref:3719568)   #417
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Exactly, for a one off piece of software. And then you will have the tie in costs of an engineer to add aswell.

For an ECU that's actually quite cheap, years back in BSB, Magneti Marelli were charging over 6 figures for a full electronics suite and engineer to look after it for you. And that figure was much more in Superbike and MotoGP.

But in largely an open formula, I think really it is an unnecessary cost, there are so many variables in rallycross, limiting things like an ECU is silly when some idiot can take you out at any time or it can rain, I think it juts someones idea of getting a technical sponsor involved for the sake of it. And of course it is what other "big" formulas do, so IMG will just copy. As they do with juts about everything they have done so far. Little innovation, juts packaging.
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 11:01 (Ref:3719573)   #418
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But in largely an open formula, I think really it is an unnecessary cost, there are so many variables in rallycross, limiting things like an ECU is silly when some idiot can take you out at any time or it can rain
I don't disagree that escalating costs for the sake of it is definitely a concern, but in the case of engine management I personally think there is enough evidence to justify the change in regulation.

A couple of years ago VW/Andretti Autosport were (very publicly) accused of cheating in the GRC and, around the same time, there was talk in the British Championship paddock about a certain driver using trick electronics. Although the latter may have purely been a malicious rumour, the VW/Andretti traction control theory was supported by many: and effective traction control could make a huge difference to car performance.

With the involvement of such big teams/sponsors now, it doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility that one of them might be tempted to pour money into developing traction or torque control systems... by introducing control to ECU selection and software though, you just prevented that from happening.

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I think it juts someones idea of getting a technical sponsor involved for the sake of it. And of course it is what other "big" formulas do, so IMG will just copy. As they do with juts about everything they have done so far. Little innovation, juts packaging.
As said in my previous post, the change in regulations don't require competitors to use a specific ECU manufacturer, so we're not at the "engine management sponsored by..." stage yet. Notably, if you compare the current regulations with the WRC, there is still a lot more flexibility with the selection of electronic components in rallycross.
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 11:08 (Ref:3719574)   #419
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It's a bit of an odd thing. Because it is costly for some teams to introduce trick traction control systems the idea of a limited ECU is valid, but if the cost of this ECU's are more expensive, you just as well could prohibit launch of traction control, especially since every performance road car these days have similar
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 13:20 (Ref:3719588)   #420
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To be honest, I would think that traction control is only useful off the line, you need wheelspin on dirt and loose surface to turn the car and position it, so having TC would inhibit that.

It would only be useful in very specific areas like the start. So really, incorporating a spec ECU just for that is slightly OTT.

the others thing s you could do are change maps on the engine at certain points, so more torque in low gear bends, more power on straights.
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 13:38 (Ref:3719590)   #421
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the others thing s you could do are change maps on the engine at certain points, so more torque in low gear bends, more power on straights.
Yeah. I know switchable mapping has been done on Time Attack cars (using GPS triggers), so the same principle could be applied elsewhere.

With the control ECU though, there is no possibility of GPS, bluetooth or any other sort of additional input.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 14:42 (Ref:3720190)   #422
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PSRXVW reveal their 2017 livery...









...I'm thinking this isn't an actual competition car though: where are the rear radiators?
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 15:35 (Ref:3720204)   #423
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...I'm thinking this isn't an actual competition car though: where are the rear radiators?
Solberg told Swedish VF that he thought the rear looked very sexy, so it might be a real car.

The car is based on the 2014 WRC Polo and has the same engine as the Beetle's in GRC. VW has worked along with PSRX and VW Sweden also to get the car finalised in a very short time.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:04 (Ref:3720216)   #424
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Solberg told Swedish VF that he thought the rear looked very sexy, so it might be a real car.

The car is based on the 2014 WRC Polo and has the same engine as the Beetle's in GRC. VW has worked along with PSRX and VW Sweden also to get the car finalised in a very short time.
The early test video (at Loheac) clearly showed a car with no rear radiator, but I just assumed that was a WRC derived test-mule. Interesting move if they have deviated from the usual design convention there.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:48 (Ref:3720233)   #425
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Looks good! But isn't it too width too for the regulations? The only car I can remember not using a radiator in the boot is the Astra of Evans. I also remember Bardy saying there was no need for it, but one season later it had the radiator in the boot. Wait a minute, maybe Gollops Focus too?
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