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Old 16 Apr 2012, 12:00 (Ref:3060164)   #1
bella
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is single seater racing *really* in crisis?

this post in the f2 thread got me thinking:

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Originally Posted by JohnMiller View Post
No it isn't.

It isn't a problem in the FR Eurocup. 43 cars?
It isn't a problem in the European F3 Open. 27 cars?
It isn't a problem in the ATS Formel 3. 21 cars?
It isn't a problem in FR3.5. More drivers than seats.
It isn't a problem in FR BARC. 25 cars?
It isn't a problem in Star Mazda. 25 cars?
It isn't a problem in ADAC F Masters. 20+ cars?

To name just a few series that have concentrated on offering value for money, not just low budget/low quality racing.
as john mentions, the eurocup today has 43 cars testing. barc had 25 in the opening round. the fr nec series has "nearly 40" cars entered for round 1 this weekend. the fr alps series had 32 cars competing at monza for round 1.

even if you take out the eurocup, that's in the region of 60-70 of the much grumbled about current chassis competing in individual series, plus another 25 of the fr2000 cars competing in barc alone. they're all on various budgets, in various teams with different kit and staffing levels.

meanwhile, british f3 has (as discussed elsewhere) less than 15 cars, f2 has 17 entries, fr uk ceased to exist, fford uk has 16 entrants at the first round, 7 of which are the new ecoboost thing, and intersteps has 10 as per round 1.

what are we doing wrong in the uk? are we actually doing anything wrong or is it the economic conditions? is it that racing in the uk on a cost basis is higher than on the continent? do we need to man up and accept that the reason other series have good healthy grids is by racing in more than 1 country? is that something we need to consider?

let's try and stay away from individual series bashing here, let's try and look at the bigger picture.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 14:25 (Ref:3060251)   #2
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There's formula racing crisis in Japan and South America too. Indy Lights grids aren't strong enough either.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 14:35 (Ref:3060264)   #3
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right, but why? japanese formulae have always been heavily supported by manufacturers, so with their lack of interest comes a need to find other investment. and indy lights... is it too expensive? or is there just a lack of drivers willing to take part because it's not going to get them a career any more?
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 00:36 (Ref:3060608)   #4
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and indy lights... is it too expensive? or is there just a lack of drivers willing to take part because it's not going to get them a career any more?
Indy Lights run a 11 year old car. It is not relevant to today's racing in North America. The cars are simple, but for the costs, it has deflected drivers towards Star Mazda.

That brings up Star Mazda. A good value for money today, as the winner gets a full season in Lights. Hence why we see a decent grid in Star Mazda this year.

Realistically this seems to be more of an issue within the British Isles. Racing in Europe has become so centralized in it's ladder system that the national series have struggled (and the Brit series' were the strongest of those). We've talked into detail about that and the decline in F3 due to other choices in Europe, so I won't go into detail.

Single seater racing is at it's height IMO. Especially in North America. While, yes the number of American-born drivers don't reflect such, the return of paying gigs in IndyCar have brought those young kids who viewed the way to get paid in motorsport is NASCAR to stick with the single seaters.
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 08:27 (Ref:3060747)   #5
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That brings up Star Mazda. A good value for money today, as the winner gets a full season in Lights. Hence why we see a decent grid in Star Mazda this year.
it's interesting that the series that are thriving at the moment are the ones that offer something of real monetary value in return for the winner. which is... like the old days.

otherwise, what's the incentive to compete at all?
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 13:16 (Ref:3060923)   #6
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it's interesting that the series that are thriving at the moment are the ones that offer something of real monetary value in return for the winner. which is... like the old days.

otherwise, what's the incentive to compete at all?
and they also offer good value for money for all those competing.

British F3 and British F-Renault are examples of how to get it wrong.

BARC Renault and Star Mazda are examples of how to get it right.
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 13:50 (Ref:3060938)   #7
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Too many series and this is just survival of the fittest. If you have a good series that provides its competitors what it wants, you'll be fine going into the future. The ones that don't will just fade away.

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"keep career drivers out of BARC Renault"
Disagree with this as well. What these guys do is they provide a nice measuring stick for the young up-and-comers coming up. Plus for those guys they are financially stable and up car counts and competition.

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mountainstar: I think what that part of the sport needs to do is rediscover it's roots when you had an easy to understand formula like Formula Ford 1600 and whoever wanted to could build a car to the rules. And it was so popular you could pretty much run just about every weekend somewhere. Everyone knew who the best drivers were because they all had a chance to compete with one another.
That still exists, it's called USAC plus several upon several "outlaw" series running to just about the same rulesets that you can transfer from one to the other with no problem and there's races over large sections of the country almost every weekend plus some mid-week that you could race maybe 80-100 times a year no problem, and it has multiple chassis builders and multiple engine builders. But you hate USAC. Late models and modifieds too which provide the same thing in certain parts in the country. This kind of goes back to the forming consensus on this thread, people go to where the racing provides them the best value for their dollar for what they want to do.

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Old 16 Apr 2012, 14:39 (Ref:3060270)   #8
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I think you know a lot of my views so I'm going to withold until a suitable moment.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 14:53 (Ref:3060279)   #9
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Single seater racing is not in crisis, but quite a number of single seater series are. The reasons for this are fairly simple. First, there are too many series around the same level aiming at the same driver. Second, there are a number of series that are just bad value for money. Third, the economic crisis has led to a reduced number of drivers and those that are able to race are looking for better bang for their buck.

Because of the above, drivers have gravitated towards certain series and these have thrived at the expense of the weaker ones that have either deteriorated or expired.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 14:56 (Ref:3060281)   #10
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Maybe the promotor who promoted FR UK, British F3 and provides the race meeting that Formula Ford race under do not really understand single seater racing and much prefer to promote GT racing.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 15:20 (Ref:3060297)   #11
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I pretty much agree with davyboy.

In times of economic stress even rich folk don't want to throw their money around and FR BARC and F3 Open seem to offer much better value for money. And if I had the cash for FR 2.0 why race around places like Oulton, Croft and Snetterton when you can be in the Eurocup for the about the same price?

The egoboost cars (at 50k plus spares) have pretty much ruined Formula Ford in the short term from what I seen on TV from Oulton and Intersteps is a nonsense anyway imho.

And as for BF3? What on earth are they doing in Monza? Just throwing money down the drain. If you want to race in Europe then fine, but keep the British series in Britain.

Lastly the utter dominance of a single team, Jamun in FF and Carlin in BF3 in recent years must put some people off. It certainly would me.

So I would say it's part economy, part hopeless decision making that's caused this problem.

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Old 16 Apr 2012, 19:53 (Ref:3060457)   #12
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do we need to man up and accept that the reason other series have good healthy grids is by racing in more than 1 country? is that something we need to consider?
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And as for BF3? What on earth are they doing in Monza? Just throwing money down the drain. If you want to race in Europe then fine, but keep the British series in Britain.
So which is it?

Actually, this map from the British F3 website does concern me. http://www.formula3.co/calendar

Spa is fine, but the other three are about as far away as you get.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 20:01 (Ref:3060458)   #13
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So which is it?

Actually, this map from the British F3 website does concern me. http://www.formula3.co/calendar

Spa is fine, but the other three are about as far away as you get.
I agree. Spa & Zandvoort would be fine (perhaps the Masters meeting?) as back in the 80's when F3 first ventured abroad. This combined with a cheaper engine deal next year could help to rescue the situation somewhat?
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 15:27 (Ref:3060303)   #14
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Single seater racing is not in crisis, but quite a number of single seater series are. The reasons for this are fairly simple. First, there are too many series around the same level aiming at the same driver. Second, there are a number of series that are just bad value for money. Third, the economic crisis has led to a reduced number of drivers and those that are able to race are looking for better bang for their buck.

Because of the above, drivers have gravitated towards certain series and these have thrived at the expense of the weaker ones that have either deteriorated or expired.
Single seater racing has been in crisis in the Americas and Oceania for quite a while now. The fact that some of it is reaching into Europe, the HOME of single seaters, is just an indication that the way it's done needs to be rethought from top to bottom.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 18:45 (Ref:3060420)   #15
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Single seater racing is clearly in trouble, at least in the UK. I’m now involved in the organisation of single seater racing, but I’m also an active competitor and this post is a purely personal one.

I think the undoubted current problems in UK single seater racing stem from both historical and current causes, which are certainly multi-faceted and complex. Simple ideas about what’s wrong and how to fix it are unlikely to help much.

Look at Formula Ford – a category I was lucky to know well in its hey-day. FF1600 did not start principally as “progression” formula. It was born from the idea that it was possible to provide an exciting single seater that the man in the street could afford to race and had the technical ability to manage. This idea proved to correct and the formula grew. As it grew its participants (who were often poor but very quick!) succeeded in developing their racing “careers” and this meant that the perception of the formula evolved to one where the idea of racing for enjoyment, and the idea racing to progress up the steps of a career ladder, co-existed in people’s thinking about FF1600. At the same time pressure on the manufacturers who had got into the business to make and sell cars meant that they tended to have “works” teams to help them gain racing success. So the idea of “teams” and rent-a-drives started to gain strength, as compared to what’s often now called the lad & dad approach. Another way of looking at this contrast between teams and individual driver/owners is often referred to as amateur vs professional. Actually this is nonsense – no drivers are genuinely professional at this level of the sport. They may pretend to be because it supports their career aspirations but they, or (most likely) their families are paying for the drive. It is the teams who provide the kit that are the professionals.

We never found out where the team vs individual; amateur vs professional, career vs enjoyment dimensions would take FF1600 because in the mid 90s Ford completely forgot or misunderstood the basis of FF1600s success; and via Zetec, Duratec and now most horribly Ecoboost, they evolved the formula squarely along the Teams, Career, Professional axis – diametrically away from the basis of its success. Because Formula Ford had then moved into a different, but fairly crowded arena of competing categories, without knowing why it had done this and what its market now was, the inevitable happened and it has pretty much failed. Six cars costing about £65000 each…fantastic.

Although I do lay the blame mostly at Ford’s door for this, the fact is the causes are more complex still. For example; during the time FF1600 has been around the man-in-the-street has lost much of his mechanical experience and ability, because modern road cars don’t go wrong and so these skills aren’t called for much these days. The man-in-the-street to longer knows how to tinker with the car, and doesn’t want to. At the same time there are many more options now for him to spend his money. And as teams stretched their wings they found that they could justify a higher cost base if the cars they ran were more complex, and so they went down this route, and consequently rent-a-drive prices tend to rise across the board. So the man-in-the-street now does track days, or goes on holiday to Turkey. On so on.

In the same way complex causes lie behind the decline or success of all the single seater categories that exist today. But I do think one theme, or dimension, does stand out. We do not seem to be able to understand how to manage the tensions between amateur vs professional, team vs individual, simple-car vs complex-car, career vs enjoyment. Today the most often proposed solution is to polarise the sport along these axis and treat the resulting parts separately. So it appears that currently the “influential” people in the sport seem to believe both the problems and the solutions are to be found only within the “top-level” categories of single seater racing.

I think they are wrong.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 19:36 (Ref:3060445)   #16
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Can't find much fault with that post, ffracer. Good points all around.
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 18:20 (Ref:3061607)   #17
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Single seater racing is clearly in trouble, at least in the UK. I’m now involved in the organisation of single seater racing, but I’m also an active competitor and this post is a purely personal one. [...]
I agree with pretty much every word.

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I do think one theme, or dimension, does stand out. We do not seem to be able to understand how to manage the tensions between amateur vs professional, team vs individual, simple-car vs complex-car, career vs enjoyment. Today the most often proposed solution is to polarise the sport along these axis and treat the resulting parts separately. So it appears that currently the “influential” people in the sport seem to believe both the problems and the solutions are to be found only within the “top-level” categories of single seater racing.

I think they are wrong.
Well, there's reason for the polarisation. IndyCar needs the Road to Indy ladder. They are trying to build a ladder for the career-minded (young drivers who want to become professional). So they created USF2000, because F2000CS didn't adapt to their needs.

IndyCar wants each step to develop the driver as a whole. Drivers must learn to driver faster and faster cars, eventual more and more complex cars, and learn to drive longer races. They must attract major sponsors. They must learn to relate with team owners, engineers and mechanics. They want each category to showcase drivers.

In addtion, IndyCar can't spend insane amounts of money to fund the ladder. They must attract major sponsors too. The easiesr is car and autoparts manufacturers. Manufacturers usually want to show cutting-edge tecnology. That's why we'll see direct injection and tubochargers in the long term, like it happened with the FFord Ecoboost.

This can be expensive, so either they find ways to decrease costs or they hush poorer drivers away. Also, some amateur drivers (drivers who enjoy racing for pleasure) will want to build their cars with their own hands. meanwhile, IndyCar and other development series will want spec cars to level the field and make faster drivers win, not faster cars. That's another divide between amateurs and professional hopefuls.

There's way to bridge between them. If cars are cheap enough, many amateurs will gladly race against career-minded racers. Or the car rules can be made clear enough so drivers-builders won't have a chance to outperform drivers-renters by building faster cars.
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 09:44 (Ref:3060803)   #18
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there are too many series around the same level aiming at the same driver
This ^

Get rid of GP3, F2 (but make F3 more like F2 in many ways), and keep 'career' drivers out of BARC Renault. Get Formula Ford back to its roots (low cost, low tech), and get Formula Renault back with a much simpler car. If F3 can reduce the budgets by at least 50% by coping what F2 has done in many cases, then the single seater ladder is simple.

FFord. FRenault. F3. GP2 (but rename it F2). F1.

As 99% of F1 wannabes will have to do most of these, you guarantee big grids and competitive prices from the teams, particularly if a way can be found to stop some teams using windtunnels or making special bespoke parts, or having 300 'mechanics' per car when 2 will do fine. Ban datalogging on FFord and maybe even FRenault. The drivers do need to learn about it, and they can do that at F3 level upwards. Ban paddleshifters too, even though if (ha) they got to F1 they would have to learn - I don't think anyone has ever had trouble moving from h-shift or sequential to paddle!! It's a ladder; add complexity and difficulty at the higher levels.

Just my uninformed opinion.
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 12:30 (Ref:3060897)   #19
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"keep career drivers out of BARC Renault"

I presume you are referring to the likes of my son Scott? Well obviously he'd love to be competing in one of the considered higher ranking championships ( not that I consider there to be anything at all wrong with BARC FR which is highly competitive at the moment & remember Scott is running with a small & new outfit in Cullen/CDR not one of the bigger established teams like Fortec) but it's a case of trying to keep his "career" alive the moment & without a big budget behind him competing in FR Euro, F3, GP3, or F2 or even a move to GT's or proto-types is just not possible!
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 10:02 (Ref:3061917)   #20
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I presume you are referring to the likes of my son Scott?
No, I wasn't really. I didn't want to give you an opportunity to mention his lack of budget or record breaking season AGAIN... Change the record or just get on with life.


As for my proposal to ban datalogging, there are some good arguments for keeping it. I do worry that being able to 'engineer' the mistakes out of a driver will tend to mask the ones that are genuinely talented. Nothing worse than propelling a driver up the ranks only to realise that, deep down, he's lacking in the natural talent needed at the top. Maybe the ban should be on the complexity of the datalogging. Brake, throttle and steering and damper pots (limited to 100Hz so that the drivers learn to FEEL the dampers rather than relying on 1kHz+ analysis of the damper curves), engine stuff (oil pressure etc etc) and the built in accelerometer and GPS data should perhaps be enough. Ban the laser ride height sensors, tyre temperature sensors, load cells etc etc.

Oh, and make it mandatory for all 'ladder' championships to carry onboard cameras AND upload them to a dedicated motorsport website that's a bit like YouTube. But that's just for fun
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 11:21 (Ref:3061965)   #21
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No, I wasn't really. I didn't want to give you an opportunity to mention his lack of budget or record breaking season AGAIN... Change the record or just get on with life.


As for my proposal to ban datalogging, there are some good arguments for keeping it. I do worry that being able to 'engineer' the mistakes out of a driver will tend to mask the ones that are genuinely talented. Nothing worse than propelling a driver up the ranks only to realise that, deep down, he's lacking in the natural talent needed at the top. Maybe the ban should be on the complexity of the datalogging. Brake, throttle and steering and damper pots (limited to 100Hz so that the drivers learn to FEEL the dampers rather than relying on 1kHz+ analysis of the damper curves), engine stuff (oil pressure etc etc) and the built in accelerometer and GPS data should perhaps be enough. Ban the laser ride height sensors, tyre temperature sensors, load cells etc etc.

Oh, and make it mandatory for all 'ladder' championships to carry onboard cameras AND upload them to a dedicated motorsport website that's a bit like YouTube. But that's just for fun
From somebody that has to remind everybody in every single post, via his foot note, that he is the Monopsoto Racing Club Champion I think your unnecessary opening attack is churlish to say the least. If anyone is displaying signs of a chip on one’s shoulder I would suggest your stance betrays a classic case.
Technology is part of motorsport now as it is everyday life. It’s called progress. Young drivers are brought up with it from a very age. Data logging is used widely in cadet karting with drivers as young as 8 and they get used to understanding and working with it from an early age. I cannot understand your argument about engineering mistakes out of a driver. Why is this a bad thing & how is it any different from good driver coaching on any level whether that be a dad & lad karting team or F1 drivers who still rely on renowned coaches like Rob Wilson etc?
Data logging isn’t significantly adding costs either. The hardware and software are relatively cheap and I would even argue if installed and operated successfully will lead to a reduced testing requirement.
Bottom line is you cannot engineer talent. A driver is either born with it or not. Those that aren’t as naturally blessed can work extremely hard and be just as successful (Graham Hill springs to mind).
You cannot fight against modernisation in sport either. If you want back to basics motor racing the way it used to be then race Historics. A fantastic place to race IMO and spectacular machinery without a doubt and still very much has its place (the Silverstone Classic is without doubt one of the best events on the calendar) but very obviously of its time. A modern Formula Ford car will probably lap most circuits quicker than an F1 car from the early 60’s (have a look at Oulton Park lap times & remember there are now two chicanes there that weren’t there in the 60’s).
Understanding and learning how to use all the tools available to you are what makes a good driver and the younger drivers today are used to it. If they have something at their disposal in karting how would it enhance their development to then withdraw it when they make the transition to cars?
The points Flavio make are far more relevant. A licencing system based on results and achievements in a sanctioned championship should be the criteria for moving up the ladder far more than daddy opening his wallet. To be a sanctioned championship a decent prize should be made available for winning it to create a proper recognised ladder system and allow drivers to progress up the ranks.
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Old 19 Apr 2012, 12:36 (Ref:3062007)   #22
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As for my proposal to ban datalogging
Shall we ban simulators too?

Let's face it, most kids of 8 or certainly 10 years are pretty well versed with setting up their car with the aid of datalogging on an xbox, PC sim or similar.

And it's free once you have the kit!

Shame the rest of the sport isn't
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 13:01 (Ref:3060915)   #23
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bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
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Ban datalogging on FFord and maybe even FRenault. The drivers do need to learn about it, and they can do that at F3 level upwards.
disagree strongly. understanding your driving style, the physics and how to make it work better it something you need to have a full handle of before you start to throw many more hundreds of thousands of pounds at f3. f1 is built around it.

i think fford is the perfect place to learn the skills of looking at your laps in terms of squiggles on a graph. the driving experience is so raw that it's very simple to translate whats happening in the car to what's happening on the screen or on your printout.

however, i agree with you on gearboxes. doing your first racing stuff on flappy paddles is like learning to drive on the road in an automatic.
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 18:30 (Ref:3061088)   #24
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Ban datalogging on FFord and maybe even FRenault. The drivers do need to learn about it, and they can do that at F3 level upwards.
like Bella I completely disagree with you on this one. the problem with saying "ban datalogging" is that if you ban the hardware, you also ban the technique and the skills, so you might unfairly hamper young drivers who are doing something fundamentally wrong in their driving but cant make corrections because the engineers cant highlight it,

you also take the skills away from the young engineers who are moving up the ladder.

and anyway in reality you can pick up a reasonable data logger (aim, R-T etc for a little over a grand) which could potentially save alot of money in broken parts, and running around at the back of the field wasting money blissfully unaware that what your doing in the car is wrong.

I think its probably worth mentioning that we live in a very "electronic" environment, and being able to analyse data and see whats happening is something that drives alot of young drivers and potential technicians into the industry.


i think one of the main sentements of this thread is that there are far too many championships aiming at the same crowd of people and the traditional low cost championships are anything but. it already seems we are going through a "thinning" process and the less appealing championships are going to the wall. (why waste your money thrashing around in Frenault in a brand new car, when you can drive for all intents and purposes a car thats the same, amongst a full grid of slightly older cars for less) and people are realising that and voting with their feet!
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 20:37 (Ref:3061153)   #25
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I don't think the number of championships is the problem. Right now we have less F3 championships then there were some years ago and the same applies for FR2.0 level. Remember how there were French, Italian, Swiss, German and I think even Swedish FR2.0. Even one year Formula Master had Italian championship and Euro 3000 had Italian championship for many years.
Problem is the $. If they ask for less, naturally there will be more drivers! This is the easiest way to widen your potential market, right now it is Lamborghini Aventador super car or more territory Go down to Porsche territory and you can have several times bigger market size.

Anyways, I have a question for those with many, many years in the sport. How many people do you think were involved in motor racing back in the 70s-80s compared to now? I ask excluding these involved in F1.
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