IF Ferrari Didn't Exist....

[DNQ]

If Ferrari didn't exist, or were disqualified (this is not an anti-Ferrari thread OK!) from the WDC, this is how the world championship would look like, assuming of course, that no body changed their strategy, setup, motivation etc, which of course is unlikley. Nonetheless, it's a good guide.

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Championships
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Drivers World Championship
1. Juan Montoya - Williams - 79
2. Ralf Schumacher - Williams - 74
3. David Coulthard - McLaren - 67
4. Kimi Raikkonen - McLaren - 38
5. Jensen Button - Renault - 20
6. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber - 17
7. Giancarlo Fisichella - 16
8. Felipe Massa - Sauber - 13
9. Jacques Villeneuve - BAR - 10
10. Jarno Trulli - Renault - 9
11. Eddie Irvine - Jaguar - 8
12. Mika Salo - Toyota - 7
13. Olivier Panis - BAR - 5
14. Heinz-Harold Frentzen - Arrows - 4
15. Mark Webber - Minardi - 3
16. Takuma Sato - Jordan - 1
16. Allan McNish - Toyota - 1
16. Alex Yoong - Minardi - 1
19. Anthony Davidson - 0
19. Pedro De La Rosa - Jaguar - 0
19. Enrique Bernoldi - Arrows - 0

Contructors Cup
1. Williams - 153
2. McLaren - 105
3. Sauber - 30
4. Renault - 29
5. Jordan - 17
6. BAR - 15
7. Jaguar - 8
7. Toyota - 8
9. Arrows - 4
10. Minardi - 4

Victories
1. Juan Montoya - 6
2. Ralf Schumacher - 4
3. David Coulthard - 3
4. Kimi Raikkonen - 2

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FULL RESULTS
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Albert Park, Australia
1. Juan Montoya - Williams
2. Kimi Raikkonen - McLaren
3. Eddie Irvine - Jaguar
4. Mark Webber - Minardi
5. Mika Salo - Toyota
6. Alex Yoong - Minardi

Sepang, Malaysia
1. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
2. Juan Montoya - Williams
3. Jensen Button - Renault
4. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber
5. Felipe Massa - Sauber
6. Allan McNish - Toyota

Interlagos, Brazil
1. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
2. David Coulthard - McLaren
3. Jensen Button - Renault
4. Juan Montoya - Williams
5. Mika Salo - Toyota
6. Eddie Irvine - Jaguar

Imola, San Marino
1. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
2. Juan Montoya - Williams
3. Jensen Button - Renault
4. David Coulthard - McLaren
5. Jacques Villeneuve - BAR
6. Felipe Massa - Sauber

Barcelona, Spain
1. Juan Montoya - Williams
2. David Coulthard - McLaren
3. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber
4. Felipe Massa - Sauber
5. Heinz-Harold Frentzen - Arrows
6. Jacques Villeneuve - BAR

A1-Ring, Austria
1. Juan Montoya - Williams
2. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
3. Giancarlo Fisichella - Jordan
4. David Coulthard - McLaren
5. Jensen Button - Renault
6. Mika Salo - Toyota

Monte Carlo - Monaco
1. David Coulthard - McLaren
2. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
3. Jarno Trulli - Renault
4. Giancarlo Fisichella - Jordan
5. Heinz-Harold Frentzen - Arrows
6. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber

Montreal, Canada
1. David Coulthard - McLaren
2. Kimi Raikkonen - McLaren
3. Giancarlo Fisichella - Jordan
4. Jarno Trulli - Renault
5. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
6. Olivier Panis - BAR

Nurburgring, Europe
1. Kimi Raikkonen - McLaren
2. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
3. Jensen Button - Renault
4. Felipe Massa - Sauber
5. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber
6. Jarno Trulli - Renault

Silverstone, Britain
1. Juan Montoya - Williams
2. Jacques Villeneuve - BAR
3. Olivier Panis - BAR
4. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber
5. Giancarlo Fisichella - Jordan
6. Ralf Schumacher - Williams

Magny Cours, France
1. Kimi Raikkonen - McLaren
2. David Coulthard - McLaren
3. Juan Montoya - Williams
4. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
5. Jensen Button - Renault
6. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber

Hockenheim, Germany
1. Juan Montoya - Williams
2. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
3. David Coulthard - McLaren
4. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber
5. Felipe Massa - Sauber
6. Takuma Sato - Jordan

Hungaroring, Hungary
1. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
2. Kimi Raikkonen - McLaren
3. David Coulthard - McLaren
4. Giancarlo Fisichella - Jordan
5. Felipe Massa - Sauber
6. Jarno Trulli - Renault

Spa, Belgium
1. Juan Montoya - Williams
2. David Coulthard - McLaren
3. Ralf Schumacher - Williams
4. Eddie Irvine - Jaguar
5. Mika Salo - Toyota
6. Jacques Villeneuve - BAR

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Hope someone finds this handy...took me AGES!

Scott

[pole2pole]

Thats amazing dnq without ferrari this would be a cracker championship with diffent drivers winning races but best of all no team orders

[Red]

You don't have to go that far. All you have to do is to is to omit the results of Michael Schumacher. Actually that really happened a couple of years ago. And 1999 was "the best championship" ever. Whow! Countless races with blown strategies, what entertaining tyre-change blunders, teammates taking each other out, "competition" to it's maximum. Sheese.

[DNQ]

1999 was a very weird season. When Michael broke his leg, I thought "GAME OVER" for Ferrari, but McLaren found a new way to shoot themselves in the foot every race...

[Red]

Yeah, I always thought of a couple of extremely polite gentlemen: "Jean, you take the championship" "No Ron, you're to kind, please you take it", "Come-on-come-on, after you Jean" etc with Eddie Jordan sneaking a couple of wins inbetween

[Mr V]

Have to admit that that was more exciting than this year though Red?

[Red]

Ok, Mr V, I admit. The *results* evolution was kinda interesting. However movies with Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy are entertaining too, if you like goofes.

As I said, you can always mentally exclude the results of Ferrari and you'll get an exciting championship. (Ok, I haven't said that, I'll do it now.)

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Red
As I said, you can always mentally exclude the results of Ferrari

Don't think anyone wants to do that, or if they're honest, not want to see Ferrari in F1, i know i want to see them out there! I don't blame Ferrari for this dominance either, i blame the other teams, and also, with regards to guys like yourselve, the Ferrari fans, if my favourite driver was winning all the time then i would be one happy cookie also, but i would rather see my driver winning in the style of TGF in Hungary '98 or Monza '98, races where it wasn't an automatic certainty, and races that TGF drove bloody hard for, than just watching races like yesterday's or Hungary, or Nurburgring or Austria, where we just see the Ferrari's pull away at the start never to be seen again!

Would you, Red,(and other TGF fans) rather see your guy fighting for a win (and still winning of course) or just winning cos the car is so superior?

[Sato san]

Was there Ferrari's in Spa then ?.....i forgot , as i was watching the real race . Montoya won, from Dc , Ralf then Eddie !


hehehehe . only jesting !

[Red]

Originally posted by mr v
Would you, Red,(and other TGF fans) rather see your guy fighting for a win (and still winning of course) or just winning cos the car is so superior?

You kiddin me Mr V, right? After 20 years in which we were constantly and thoroughly beaten?!?!? Indeed Hungary '98 is one of my favorite races (but may I add that I loved it because of the perfect race strategy, planning and implementation? There wasn't actually an on-track pass there, was it Of course, I'm weird! I do love that kind of strategic-races! But I thought I'm a singular case, glad Mr V that I'm not alone! But the sight of the red cars almost lapping the 3rd placed man is also good.

[AllonFS]

Originally posted by mr v
Don't think anyone wants to do that, or if they're honest, not want to see Ferrari in F1, i know i want to see them out there! I don't blame Ferrari for this dominance either, i blame the other teams, and also, with regards to guys like yourselve, the Ferrari fans, if my favourite driver was winning all the time then i would be one happy cookie also, but i would rather see my driver winning in the style of TGF in Hungary '98 or Monza '98, races where it wasn't an automatic certainty, and races that TGF drove bloody hard for, than just watching races like yesterday's or Hungary, or Nurburgring or Austria, where we just see the Ferrari's pull away at the start never to be seen again!

Spot on mr v, my thoughts exactly. I'm not a tifosi but Ferrari are vital to F1. They are the link back to 1950 and the first race at Silverstone, and the tifosi are a fantastic part of F1. I don't mind them (and Schumacher)winning. I just want to see real challenging circuits not modern go-kart tracks, I want to see driving skills not driving aids, and finally I want to see races not processions.

[Red]

Oh yes, I forgot. Altough Monza '98 was a perfect 1-2 and for an entire week I wasn't sober may I add that it was mostly to Coulthard's engine that went poof? Of course the pass that Schumacher pulled on Mika was excellent, and of course that it proved that Ferrari builds a good car, reliable altough not exactly the fastest, but that was yet another one-pass-race. But other than my personal and subjective satisfaction it wasn't any superior to yesterday's race. The difference was that the pass (and I repeat, it was great) occured at top rather than a fight for 11th place. :confused:.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Red
The difference was that the pass (and I repeat, it was great) occured at top rather than a fight for 11th place. :confused:.

I think your missing my point Red, and that point is that, prior to that race starting, nobody knew who would win that race, it could have been 4 guys realistically, TGF (who did go onto win), Mika, DC, or even Eddie had the others all gone out! This years Ferrari is so reliable and fast that, unless TGF gifts Rubens a win, then we all know who's going to win before the race weekend even starts, and thats the difference between Monza '98 and yesterdays race.

[kmchow]

If Ferrari is gone, the pecking order just stays the same? So is the championship "that" much tighter? OTOH, I guess each of the remaining teams will get more PR/coverage?
Contructors Cup
1. Williams - 153
2. McLaren - 105
3. Sauber - 30
4. Renault - 29
5. Jordan - 17
6. BAR - 15
7. Jaguar - 8
7. Toyota - 8
9. Arrows - 4
10. Minardi - 4

[Speed]

Originally posted by Red
You kiddin me Mr V, right? After 20 years in which we were constantly and thoroughly beaten?!?!?

Great years..., It's a shame I missed so much fun... (I'm an F1 supporter since 1990). Goshhhh, I missed so much action...

[f1manoz]

If Ferrari didn't exist, Formula One would probably not exist in it's current form.

[Red]

Originally posted by mr v
I think your missing my point Red, and that point is that, prior to that race starting, nobody knew who would win that race, it could have been 4 guys realistically, TGF (who did go onto win), Mika, DC, or even Eddie had the others all gone out! This years Ferrari is so reliable and fast that, unless TGF gifts Rubens a win, then we all know who's going to win before the race weekend even starts, and thats the difference between Monza '98 and yesterdays race.

Mr V, I got your point, however you slightly missed mines. What exactly does count? The final result of a race, the final result of a championship or the racing (that is overtakings and bold moves. And might I add perfect strategy, teamwork, faultless drive etc)? And apparently not "all of us know who's going to win" anyway. Just as I browse through the various topics posted at a very nice internet forum and, and I quote from memory, look at the "How will Kimi win", "Juan you'll be the man" etc.

[AllonFS]

Originally posted by Red
Mr V, I got your point, however you slightly missed mines. What exactly does count? The final result of a race, the final result of a championship or the racing (that is overtakings and bold moves. And might I add perfect strategy, teamwork, faultless drive etc)?

I guess this is where people have different views. As I don't support a driver or team, what I want from F1 is good racing with overtaking and bold moves. If you a member of a team, or support a team or driver then it is the results that matter. For me, I watched F1 for the racing and drama, not for the stats at the end of the season.

[Red]

Well, my question was not at all rhetorical. The drama of a championship that goes to the last race involves only the results. Furthermore, if the results game often involve mechanical problems, accidents, then excuses, or other proofs of amateurism than that drama is not for me. Anyway, even if the Championship is long time ago decided, I can still find entertainment watching Villeneuve passing for 13th place. And apparently I'm not the only one.

[Legend]

DNQ

I will thank you for taking your time "Refreshing" the WDC table! Nice done! As now the steam engine is rolling will you also make another table too? Take the Mac out of 1988 and let's find the Fantasy champion there too. Please do not spare us for details and make it as long as this one, or perhaps a bit longer! Nice work done here!

Thanks in reverse
Legend

Cheers

PS You can also remodel this one too. Take the 6 competive cars out and look who is the WDC! Would that be Button? So why does people complain here that F1 has not a British WDC?!!! There you go!


1. Jensen Button - Renault - 20
2. Nick Heidfeld - Sauber - 17
3. Giancarlo Fisichella - 16
4. Felipe Massa - Sauber - 13
5. Jacques Villeneuve - BAR - 10
6. Jarno Trulli - Renault - 9
7. Eddie Irvine - Jaguar - 8
8. Mika Salo - Toyota - 7
9. Olivier Panis - BAR - 5
10. Heinz-Harold Frentzen - Arrows - 4
11. Mark Webber - Minardi - 3
12. Takuma Sato - Jordan - 1
12. Allan McNish - Toyota - 1
12. Alex Yoong - Minardi - 1

[Maxmil]

Originally posted by DNQ
Hope someone finds this handy...took me AGES!
Scott

I should guess it did, but what a piece of work! I am particularly grateful to you as I had been intending to do the research myself today but now I can enjoy your work instead. It really does dramatize just how dominant Ferrari has been and how close together the two Williams drivers are in the WDC contest. Also, McLaren clearly has to bring their car to a significantly higher level in order to have a realistic shot at a title in the WCC. A fifty point gap at this stage is, of course, unbeatable. David C's advantage over Kimi looks substantial, but it really seems to be that DC has made it into the points more consistently than his partner. Kimi should be able to improve on that. I see only three races where they both finished in the points, and Kimi took two of those. The other shocking thing about the Constructors' standings is how absolutely futile the Jaguar and Toyota efforts were. If Toyota now goes on to improve next year, Jag is finished. On the other hand look at how well the other "factory" team Renault has done. It will be very interesting to watch them next year.

Alas however, as Michael Schwartznegger would put it: "Vee Vill be Baaack".

[DNQ]

Originally posted by Legend
DNQ

I will thank you for taking your time "Refreshing" the WDC table! Nice done! As now the steam engine is rolling will you also make another table too? Take the Mac out of 1988 and let's find the Fantasy champion there too. Please do not spare us for details and make it as long as this one, or perhaps a bit longer! Nice work done here!

Thanks in reverse
Legend

Legend, I don't understand you

I put this together for people to have a look at...I find it interesting I am sure others do also.

It is not to take away from Ferrari's achievements or to have a go at you or any other tifosi, no one can deny the F2002 is the best car, and Michael is the best driver...it's just good to be able to see the race for second place in a different light

Anyway, that's enough from me

[BootsOntheSide]

Well done DNQ. Its interesting how similar the resultant order is to what the order would be without the Ferraris, a common result when you remove the top few drivers or cars, or use a different points stystem such as the CART one- no changes in the first few positions, but of course we'd have a cracking finale with 3 races left- 3 drivers within little more than 1 win. And Alex Yoong would have a World Championship point.....