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Old 15 Jan 2019, 08:38 (Ref:3876235)   #1801
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And that's probably why Pirelli were chosen over Pirelli. Michelin were even pushing for a return to a tyre war
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Old 15 Jan 2019, 09:45 (Ref:3876243)   #1802
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Originally Posted by fer312t View Post
They have the choice not to pursue the tender, simple as that. They should say, as a tire company - one that supposedly specializes in performance tires that - "we will not compete in a series that requires us to construct a tire that is deliberately engineered to degrade. It is not in our ethos."

Michelin would never put themselves in that position.

You are overlooking the fact that when Pirelli won the last tender contest to supply tyres for Formula 1 that Michelin were also pursuing that contract. Michelin lost the bid because they would only supply tyres for 18" wheels, against the Pirelli bid which accepted to manufacture tyres for whatever diameter the FIA mandated.

So, it would seem as though Michelin were also minded to provide crap tyres that met the FIA's specification.
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Old 15 Jan 2019, 11:08 (Ref:3876259)   #1803
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They have the choice not to pursue the tender, simple as that. They should say, as a tire company - one that supposedly specializes in performance tires that - "we will not compete in a series that requires us to construct a tire that is deliberately engineered to degrade. It is not in our ethos."

Michelin would never put themselves in that position.
Beside the point made above about how Michelin would have in fact signed on the dotted line, you conveniently ignore the fact EVERYONE has signed on the dotted line.

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Old 16 Jan 2019, 05:12 (Ref:3876396)   #1804
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Michelin lost the bid because they would only supply tyres for 18" wheels, against the Pirelli bid which accepted to manufacture tyres for whatever diameter the FIA mandated. So, it would seem as though Michelin were also minded to provide crap tyres that met the FIA's specification.
Michelin did not 'lose' - they decided not to apply...

Michelin absolutely would not have followed the Pirelli route if they 'won' the tender...which I suspect is the main reason they did not apply...as opposed to the low profile tires, which are now coming anyway.

Michelin: "deterioration of performance as a part of the show, goes against our principles of efficient resource management and respect for the technology of a sustainable tyre."
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Old 16 Jan 2019, 11:20 (Ref:3876444)   #1805
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They have the choice not to pursue the tender, simple as that. They should say, as a tire company - one that supposedly specializes in performance tires that - "we will not compete in a series that requires us to construct a tire that is deliberately engineered to degrade. It is not in our ethos."

Michelin would never put themselves in that position.
whilst it’s working for them commercially there’s no issue is there? if you think the f1 tyres will mean the road performance is affected then you don’t really get it. f1 isn’t about transferrable tyre tech. if they want that they’d need to run road relevant tyres and... well. see formula e.

and if you don’t think michelin produce some unfit for purpose tyres you probably need to watch a bit more motorsport!
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Old 16 Jan 2019, 12:56 (Ref:3876475)   #1806
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1000%
Another example of the herd thinking that blames Pirelli for everything and conveniently ignores the contracted details they have to follow to comply. if it was another company they would be copping it in the neck and be labelled incompetent as well. I can see why Michelin wanted a wheel size change and good on them for sticking to their guns, I think a lot of the problem is the stupid aspect ratio cannot handle the capabilities of these cars, the Mercedes photo that has been floating around shows exactly what I mean the tyre distortion is just stupid, more like drag slicks than circuit racing tyres. But ignore me and keep belting Pirelli because you have no other explanations.
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Old 16 Jan 2019, 23:02 (Ref:3876607)   #1807
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Another example of the herd thinking that blames Pirelli for everything and conveniently ignores the contracted details they have to
Nothing is ignored. Pirelli are complicit in the situation and so they deserve the flak they get. And said previously, they are not even meeting the 'F1 brief' consistently as often one compound in simply deficient in all areas.

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if it was another company they would be copping it in the neck and be labelled incompetent as well.
And so they would/should...

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I think a lot of the problem is the stupid aspect ratio cannot handle the capabilities of these cars
Doubtful...
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 03:48 (Ref:3876625)   #1808
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Nothing is ignored. Pirelli are complicit in the situation and so they deserve the flak they get. And said previously, they are not even meeting the 'F1 brief' consistently as often one compound in simply deficient in all areas.



And so they would/should...



Doubtful...
Now it's down to doubtful and not a categoric NO. I have raced in periods that span both, why do you think low aspect tyres were developed in the first place? Cars started to overpower the tyres on the road, can you imagine the latest road supercars on 14" wheels & 75% aspect ration tyres? They would handle like the proverbial bucket of ****. I wonder if the teams want to change as per Michelin's request, wasn't there to be some kind of test?
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 09:58 (Ref:3876664)   #1809
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They would handle like the proverbial bucket of ****. I wonder if the teams want to change as per Michelin's request, wasn't there to be some kind of test?
Paddy Lowe: "The subject of [larger diameter] wheels has been raised many times over the last five or eight years. The broad consensus is that going to bigger wheels is not a good direction. From a grip point of view it's not positive. Like for like, such tyres will have a lower grip and the weight will go up considerably, so it's not an attractive direction performance-wise.
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 11:09 (Ref:3876672)   #1810
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Paddy Lowe: "The subject of [larger diameter] wheels has been raised many times over the last five or eight years. The broad consensus is that going to bigger wheels is not a good direction. From a grip point of view it's not positive. Like for like, such tyres will have a lower grip and the weight will go up considerably, so it's not an attractive direction performance-wise.
I wouldn't like to be seen as trying to say Paddy isn't right but that statement seems to ignore both logic and physics.
A low aspect ratio tyre, when installed on corectly designed suspension, has the ability to more accurately control the positioning and movement of the contact patch within the most ideal requirements.
A larger light weight wheel with a smaller proportion of rubber to achieve the required diameter is surely lighter than the present specification.
Yes, F1 suspension would require a revolution in design to substitute for the current situation where the tyre itself uses it's flexibility as the main springing function of the suspension.
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 12:13 (Ref:3876688)   #1811
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I wouldn't like to be seen as trying to say Paddy isn't right but that statement seems to ignore both logic and physics.
A low aspect ratio tyre, when installed on corectly designed suspension, has the ability to more accurately control the positioning and movement of the contact patch within the most ideal requirements.
A larger light weight wheel with a smaller proportion of rubber to achieve the required diameter is surely lighter than the present specification.
Yes, F1 suspension would require a revolution in design to substitute for the current situation where the tyre itself uses it's flexibility as the main springing function of the suspension.
i suppose teams can reduce the weight of the rims themselves whereas a heavy tyre is a heavy tyre. he does ignore the huge amount of variation in sidewall flexibilty between different brands and applications though. the simplest comparison of that is between wets and slicks (ideally new). if a low profile lmp1 tyre can be designed to last for a similar length of time as a f1 tyre with plenty of grip, then it’s hardly impossible. likewise the teams can adapt.

not saying that low profile would be my choice, considering that almost all single seaters currently use 13” or similar, but i can’t see any definitive reasons that they’d be a terrible idea. formula e is a poor comparison since they have a totally different concept behind their tyres. even if they do practically run them as slicks in testing
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 12:30 (Ref:3876691)   #1812
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We are going OT but my thoughts are mostly inline with Oldtony. I think there are pros and cons to each option. I think the current tires probably do have more grip as they can deform more than short sidewall designs. I suspect the current ones are likely slightly lighter, but not by much. I agree that the shorter sidewall tires will be more responsive.

In general what Lowe was really defending was the status quo. So he talks only about the pros of the current tires and the cons of the others. Heads I win, tails you lose. He doesn’t paint a complete picture. The current tires are understood and the current suspension designs optimized for them. Moving to shorter sidewall tires will move more “movement” from the tires (sidewalls) to the actual suspension. The teams will have to move focus to suspension design. With the inherent risk that someone will get it wrong, or that a current trick solution doesn’t transition well.

Would the fans see or notice a performance difference? Unlikely. And the difference may be minor in the end. I wouldn’t put money on which might be better (performance) in the long run. Especially as the car will change as well and comparisons that zero in on one feature change will be impossible or difficult. With that being said, I fully support the move to the lower sidewall tires.

Of course none of this has any real relevance to Pirelli.

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Old 17 Jan 2019, 15:24 (Ref:3876741)   #1813
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Paddy Lowe: "The subject of [larger diameter] wheels has been raised many times over the last five or eight years. The broad consensus is that going to bigger wheels is not a good direction. From a grip point of view it's not positive. Like for like, such tyres will have a lower grip and the weight will go up considerably, so it's not an attractive direction performance-wise.
Why does Paddy Lowe say the larger wheel won't work for F1 when it works with LMP1 and 2?
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 15:33 (Ref:3876743)   #1814
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Changing to a lower aspect tyre will fundamentally change car design and the last thing the top teams want is to upset the status quo because they can't reliably predict the outcome. Any team media releases will support the notion that larger wheels are not necessary.
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 15:59 (Ref:3876749)   #1815
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Changing to a lower aspect tyre will fundamentally change car design and the last thing the top teams want is to upset the status quo because they can't reliably predict the outcome. Any team media releases will support the notion that larger wheels are not necessary.
The defunct Lotus F1 Team tested 18" wheels and the car doesn't look fundamentally different.

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Old 17 Jan 2019, 16:12 (Ref:3876754)   #1816
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The defunct Lotus F1 Team tested 18" wheels and the car doesn't look fundamentally different.

Even if you produced an amazingly good looking car, it doesn't mean that it will necessarily be a good or quick vehicle.
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 16:53 (Ref:3876767)   #1817
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Why does Paddy Lowe say the larger wheel won't work for F1 when it works with LMP1 and 2?
if i had to guess, it is because his team lacks the resources to make the necessary changes.

from an engineering/technical point of view he may be wrong but this is F1 and perhaps he is making a judgment based on the only metric that matters...the size of his team's budget.
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 17:04 (Ref:3876771)   #1818
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Pirelli are complicit in the situation and so they deserve the flak they get.
for sure im in the minority but i like what Pirelli are doing (and even give BE credit for creating a control mechanism beyond the teams influence)...imo the only thing they are complicit in is making the racing a little less predictable and for me thats a good thing.

the teams, the drivers, and the fans dont really ever know how a compound will perform from track to track, stint to stint and that uncertainty basically lasts the whole season.

Max's win is Austria this year is case in point. not the fastest car but he managed his unreliable and unpredictable tires in real time/real life and found a way to win.

personally i want more of this not less and honestly im not sure how a more reliable more predictable tire is beneficial for me as a spectator.
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 17:05 (Ref:3876773)   #1819
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Even if you produced an amazingly good looking car, it doesn't mean that it will necessarily be a good or quick vehicle.
It would be interesting to know, what the outcome was of Lotus F1's testing 18" wheels and how they compared.
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Old 17 Jan 2019, 20:00 (Ref:3876823)   #1820
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It would be interesting to know, what the outcome was of Lotus F1's testing 18" wheels and how they compared.

Here is the press release/report of that test from Pirelli: https://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/n...e-9-july-2014/

Apparently the test was test the aesthetics of the design, rather than to determine any performance values.
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Old 18 Jan 2019, 01:48 (Ref:3876863)   #1821
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if i had to guess, it is because his team lacks the resources to make the necessary changes.

from an engineering/technical point of view he may be wrong but this is F1 and perhaps he is making a judgment based on the only metric that matters...the size of his team's budget.
It should be noted that the Lowe quote is from 2015 while he was at Mercedes. As I mentioned earlier, i suspect its more likely the preservation of the status quo.

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Old 18 Jan 2019, 01:51 (Ref:3876864)   #1822
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Why does Paddy Lowe say the larger wheel won't work for F1 when it works with LMP1 and 2?
Don’t bring facts or logic to this argument. It’s not how things work here. How long have you participated in this forum?

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Old 18 Jan 2019, 03:25 (Ref:3876871)   #1823
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The defunct Lotus F1 Team tested 18" wheels and the car doesn't look fundamentally different.

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It would be interesting to know, what the outcome was of Lotus F1's testing 18" wheels and how they compared.
Given it was on the car of the time I sincerely doubt they went to a great deal of trouble changing suspension just for an aesthetics test.
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Old 18 Jan 2019, 17:52 (Ref:3877031)   #1824
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Here is the press release/report of that test from Pirelli: https://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/n...e-9-july-2014/

Apparently the test was test the aesthetics of the design, rather than to determine any performance values.
Thanks for that. I had no idea, that it was mainly about aesthetics.
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Old 18 Jan 2019, 17:53 (Ref:3877032)   #1825
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Don’t bring facts or logic to this argument. It’s not how things work here. How long have you participated in this forum?

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The Pirelli Story Dutton Motorsport History 1 13 Aug 2009 16:06
Pirelli win WRC tyre contract. BertMk2 Rallying & Rallycross 14 5 Apr 2007 09:48
Pirelli tyre problems? Asa Sportscar & GT Racing 3 18 Jul 2005 12:35


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