RBR's Advantage - Suspension - The Forgotten art of F1

[wnut]

This came to me when watching the front of Perez’s McLaren on super slow motion hitting the curb on one of the corners in Abu Dahbi. As usual there was absolutely no movement in the suspension despite the front end of the car was launched at least 450 mm into the air and yet the suspension did not even move! The deflection in the tyre was clear to see as was the resonance in the side walls following the solid rebound off the kerb.
This imo, is just plain wrong!
Observing the rest of the cars at the Indian GP, the following characteristics were noted:

McLaren – No suspension whatsoever, the suspension seems to be absolutely locked out! Ref to massive hit on curb resulted in no deflection at all. There does however appear to be some compliance in the rear suspension.

Ferrari – Pretty well no suspension movement at all, Massa’s suspension seems stiffer than Alonso’s suspension.

Mercedes – suspension does move, but seems slow and over damped. Responds to load transfer, looks like it is set up to shed aero load under acceleration. Back suspension dead and unresponsive. Unsure what they are trying to achieve, would lead to reduced downforce under acceleration and extreme tyre wear, Hamilton spinning up tyres constantly would seem to be consistent with this observation?

Force India – good suspension movement, next best to RBR ref below.

Sauber – some roll, suspension very stiff, but front wishbones are flat as you would expect on a conventional setup, not compromised by aero considerations. The rear suspension however appears to be bottomed out and has no room to move under acceleration car very tail low. Rear suspension dead and unresponsive, similar to a too soft and over damped springs that have sagged out completely.

Lotus –
RBR – Suspension tracks over bumps, rebounds quickly in a controlled manner over bumps keeping the wheel on the ground like you would expect a good well adjusted suspension to operate. Vettel’s car appears to do this better than Webber’s!
Vettel is currently achieving very good tyre life, is able to corner smoothly and has good mid corner grip, all of which would be consistent with running a compliant suspension capable of responding to the track’s surface imperfections.

One of the characteristics of running a too hard or locked out suspension is failure to get proper traction, in braking and acceleration and localized blistering and flat spotting of the tyres.

I may be wrong and admittedly trying to observe exactly what is going on from limited TV footage; no BBC Red Button; is a far from exact science.
However I submit that the main reason for RBR’s spectacular success is they have not been so hypnotized by aerodynamics that they have failed to bother with suspension set up! Given also that Adrian Newey actually races himself in cars that have no real aerodynamic downforce, he would be well aware of the advantages of a well setup suspension, and I believe this is what we are seeing on the RBR cars!

Your thoughts please, ladies and gentlemen!

[andy666]

I will be watching the slow-mo`s very carefully at the next race ! Is there a chance that with the advancement of aero it has led to restricted set-ups on the suspension ? Otherwise surely other teams would be trying softer set-ups ? I don`t know just trying to sound clever ! Interesting post by the way .

Post ! I meant thread, sorry.

[TRuss]

I am saying this with the utmost respect to the previous posters. But. I can't believe any of us has figured out something that the best minds in F1 haven't.

[Dragger]

RedBull has been known in the past to have the lower top speeds of the top ten, so their advantage is coming in the corners.

Grip. But from where? Mechanical, aero, or both? Most corners in F1 average 2 or 3rd gear, if RedBull were hurting in mech grip I doubt they would be running away like they do.

I think RedBull maximized their available mechanical AND aero grip throughout the 1st half of the season. They're a complete, balanced, and all around package.

Side note: Look at how often the RedBulls lock up tires under braking vs other cars. RBR rarely ever do.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by TRuss

I am saying this with the utmost respect to the previous posters. But. I can't believe any of us has figured out something that the best minds in F1 haven't.

This.

But the thing is, the best minds in F1 never show their hand. Or share it with us...

[Marbot]

I think it's clear that Red Bull have much more downforce than other cars and can trade off top speed on the straights for better grip in the corners because of that. Red Bull are consistently one of the slowest cars on the straights.

[luke g28]

First off I dont know where the thumbs down came from or how to get rid of it :/

Since the 2nd half of this Season RBR are right at the top of the speedtraps. They have found a way to shed a whole chunk of the drag penalty they have been suffering from since 09.

Mclaren run the car way too stiff, has been a trait for a few years but was the worst at the start of this year. Their aero is very pitch sensitive so if the car squats or dives too much the aero breaks. As this has been a culture since 09 it has been very difficult for them to change it this season. Hopefully they will learn from their mistakes with next years car.

The sauber is one of the best in traction zones which appears at odds with your statement

"The rear suspension however appears to be bottomed out and has no room to move under acceleration car very tail low. Rear suspension dead and unresponsive"

RBR are very actively chasing Aero improvements, I would go so far as to say that the reason they are dominating since the summer break is because they have made a significant aero breakthrough, which has been specifically raised by Ross Brawn as "ominous" for next year and has solved their Achilles heel of low top speed.

Overall though I would agree with previous posters, RBR are dominating as their car & driver are such a complete package, they dont excel in one area they are just a bit better everywhere.

[Michael24]

Originally Posted by luke g28

RBR are very actively chasing Aero improvements, I would go so far as to say that the reason they are dominating since the summer break is because they have made a significant aero breakthrough, which has been specifically raised by Ross Brawn as "ominous" for next year and has solved their Achilles heel of low top speed.

You can chase all the aero you want. Whether you base it on a very unresponsive suspension or one that responds more lively, is another thing. I'd understand Newey going for (mechanical) grip and balance over other factors and influences. Wouldn't be the first time too.

Remember how he wouldn't put KERS in, until he figured how to do so, without upsetting the balance?

Obviously, no team will admit to overlooking the bloody obvious. It also wouldn't be the first time, everybody except Adrian did.

Michael

[BertMk2]

There was a Gary Anderson article on the bbc website that went some way towards a theory on why Red Bull have made a clean break from the others. Basically it revolves around ride height - Red Bull were running very low, the tyres at the start of the season behaved in such a way that Red Bull had to run the car a bit higher than they wanted (so lost aero performance underneath the car). The change in tyre construction mid season has meant that Red Bull could drop the car lower again and re-gain the 'lost' downforce generated by the floor of the car. This has resulted in the relative improvement compared to other teams (some of which have noticeably faded after the change of tyre construction). The Red Bull is (according to the article) designed in such a way that the floor generates more downforce than any of the other cars and the root is such a fundamental part of the chassis design that even if the other teams have worked out what the key feature is they can't copy it as they'd need to design/build new chassis - there's no 'bolt on' equivalent.

[luke g28]

Its all to do with being able to seal the sides of the floor and the diffusor, this is why RBR run a much higher rake than the other teams.

As RBR can run the car much higher at the rear it allows them to have more travel in the rear suspension whereas other teams cannot stop the turbulent air flooding in through the sides of the floor and disrupting the underbody DF.

[Knowlesy]

McLaren used to have lovely supple cars over the bumps before the 2009 rules overhaul. Perhaps that was linked to the Newey philosophy also.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by andy666

I will be watching the slow-mo`s very carefully at the next race ! Is there a chance that with the advancement of aero it has led to restricted set-ups on the suspension ? Otherwise surely other teams would be trying softer set-ups ? I don`t know just trying to sound clever ! Interesting post by the way .

Post ! I meant thread, sorry.

Look forward to seeing your comments after the next race andy666!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by TRuss

I am saying this with the utmost respect to the previous posters. But. I can't believe any of us has figured out something that the best minds in F1 haven't.

So don't think, nothing a "professional" has done can ever be improved on!

There are actually a whole bunch of mistakes that have been made in F1 for the whole wide world to see, why do you think the new engine regulations have been so tightly specified?

Why is RBR so much better than everyone else, they must be doing something different?

Getting too close to hundreds of problems, and not seeing the wood from the trees perhaps?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by luke g28

First off I dont know where the thumbs down came from or how to get rid of it :/


The sauber is one of the best in traction zones which appears at odds with your statement

Overall though I would agree with previous posters, RBR are dominating as their car & driver are such a complete package, they dont excel in one area they are just a bit better everywhere.

No worries!

Not really Sauber were *****ing about there lack of traction at Abu Dahbi, and this is the only race that it occurred to me to try and look at the suspensions, so my observations would apparently fit!

Very probably!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by luke g28

Its all to do with being able to seal the sides of the floor and the diffusor, this is why RBR run a much higher rake than the other teams.

As RBR can run the car much higher at the rear it allows them to have more travel in the rear suspension whereas other teams cannot stop the turbulent air flooding in through the sides of the floor and disrupting the underbody DF.

This is a really interesting observation luke g28!

Because is looks as if some of the cars have adopted very tail down attitudes!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

McLaren used to have lovely supple cars over the bumps before the 2009 rules overhaul. Perhaps that was linked to the Newey philosophy also.

Good point Knowlesy, I had not picked that change point in McLaren's set up, design philosophy! Wonder if they have themselves!

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by wnut

So don't think, nothing a "professional" has done can ever be improved on!

There are actually a whole bunch of mistakes that have been made in F1 for the whole wide world to see, why do you think the new engine regulations have been so tightly specified?

Why is RBR so much better than everyone else, they must be doing something different?

Getting too close to hundreds of problems, and not seeing the wood from the trees perhaps?

Right!

It was years ago, and I don't remember the driver and the team, but I remember a top driver moving to a new team, testing, deciding the car was rubbish and asking the team to fit the softest springs they had. The driver then went faster than they had ever gone on that circuit.

Even with tons of computing power, it's still possible to get lost in the woods!

Also, observing that the fastest team is running a more compliant suspension is not the same as figuring out how to make that happen. The other teams would probably love to, if they could figure out how to make it work.

Great observations!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Right!

It was years ago, and I don't remember the driver and the team, but I remember a top driver moving to a new team, testing, deciding the car was rubbish and asking the team to fit the softest springs they had. The driver then went faster than they had ever gone on that circuit.

Even with tons of computing power, it's still possible to get lost in the woods!

Also, observing that the fastest team is running a more compliant suspension is not the same as figuring out how to make that happen. The other teams would probably love to, if they could figure out how to make it work.

Great observations!

Hi Miatanut, was hoping you'd buy into this one, I think the driver you are talking about was Mansell when he arrived at Williams. Also a Newey car? Maybe a lesson well learned by the designer!

The tons of computing power is an interesting thought, how would you allow for random ripples in the track surface on your calculations? Seems to be an area where feel and intuition may yield good results over computing power.

"Great observations!" - Hope so, lets see what the consensus is following the next races!

At least you have now got a few reasons to watch a few F1 races!

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by wnut

Hi Miatanut, was hoping you'd buy into this one, I think the driver you are talking about was Mansell when he arrived at Williams. Also a Newey car? Maybe a lesson well learned by the designer!

The tons of computing power is an interesting thought, how would you allow for random ripples in the track surface on your calculations? Seems to be an area where feel and intuition may yield good results over computing power.

"Great observations!" - Hope so, lets see what the consensus is following the next races!

At least you have now got a few reasons to watch a few F1 races!

I'll wait until next season.

I have to go to Austin on business in the next couple weeks, and I have three car-crazy nephews there, but I looked at the ticket prices and decided I would schedule my travel to avoid the race rather than coincide with it.

Thanks, Bernie!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I'll wait until next season.

I have to go to Austin on business in the next couple weeks, and I have three car-crazy nephews there, but I looked at the ticket prices and decided I would schedule my travel to avoid the race rather than coincide with it.

Thanks, Bernie!

The prices are extortionate aren't they!

It shames me to admit that I have been guilty of not attending a race or two I could have fairly easily, simply because I felt the prices were over the top!

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

So don't think, nothing a "professional" has done can ever be improved on!

Why is RBR so much better than everyone else, they must be doing something different?

Of course not, but improved upon by some random bloke on an internet forum with no car suspension or aero experience? Unlikely. Very unlikely.

Newey on the other hand is perfectly capable of making improvement leaps because he has years of experience behind him in race car design. He is also able to make intuitive leaps, which may be the difference to most other designers, but those leaps are only possible because of his vast experience. Aero and suspension design is difficult. Very difficult. I suggest buying some books on the subject and trying to read and understand them - good luck with that. They are a couple of subjects that you think "I can do that" when you first look at them, then as you study further, you realise it's rather more complicated than you first imagined.

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by wnut

This is a really interesting observation luke g28!

Because is looks as if some of the cars have adopted very tail down attitudes!

a line of thinking that you often hear referring to race strategy, theres no point the other teams trying to beat RBR at their own game, better to try something different and hope it pays off!

Pictures from F1 technical (http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...606&start=1710) showing how much higher RBR are at the rear and how much rake they are running

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Newey on the other hand is perfectly capable of making improvement leaps because he has years of experience behind him in race car design. He is also able to make intuitive leaps, which may be the difference to most other designers, but those leaps are only possible because of his vast experience.

im by no means an expert on the subject but that just sounds right to me. intuition based on experience.

reintroducing the pull rod suspension concept while almost ignoring (in 2009 anyways) the double diffuser design path is an example of that.

in this case different is good.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Of course not, but improved upon by some random bloke on an internet forum with no car suspension or aero experience? Unlikely. Very unlikely.

The original post was an astute observation about some differences among the cars, not a claim of knowing how to achieve what RBR has achieved.

With all the threads about drivers, it's nice to have one on this sort of subject.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by luke g28

a line of thinking that you often hear referring to race strategy, theres no point the other teams trying to beat RBR at their own game, better to try something different and hope it pays off!

Pictures from F1 technical (http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...606&start=1710) showing how much higher RBR are at the rear and how much rake they are running

Thanks Lukeg28, great post!

Strange that the cars seem to perform in direct proportion to rear ride height!
RBR, Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren.