[DTM] The final breath!?

[Valenok]

There are 2 DTM's - current stupid toy for big bosses like Haug and Ullrich, and hipotetic fantasy DTM we want (and hope) to see. When we stand, that first never be second, DTM will die.
DTM ballast rule is garanty for big bosses, that their car finally win something. New and old car situation is garanty, that champion (pole-sitter, race winner) will be their factory driver, manageable. This is the way, that they (DTM big bosses) rule serie. And that is why we hate them.
DTM need:
- cheap standard monocoque for every team
- cutted restricted standard aerodynamic
- production based (and homologated) engines (6-cyl 3.0L turbo)
- semi standard suspension and transmission
- more makes (3-4)
- more racing (2 races per weekend with 1 pit-stop each (120km))
- new point system, with more places awarded by points.

[10tacle]

Originally Posted by Valenok

DTM need:
- cheap standard monocoque for every team or production based cars
- cutted restricted standard aerodynamic
- production based (and homologated) engines (6-cyl 3.0L turbo) or a little less with 2.5 V6 like the good old times
- semi standard suspension and transmission
- more makes (3-4)
- more racing (2 races per weekend with 1 pit-stop each (120km))
- new point system, with more places awarded by points.
- independent Teams

signed

[OJB]

Sorry to go back to the first couple of posts on this thread, I'd guess the new manufacturer is Lexus or Toyota.

Toyota are rumoured to be entering the Euroseries next season, so maybe they'll use it as a chance to breed new talent like Mercedes and Audi (through Volkswagen) have. Plus the F1 team is German based so they probably know more about it then most would.

As for the series itself, I like the spectacle and the racing can be good, but it is frustrating when a maximum of only 8 drivers can really win because they penalise the older cars enough to merely ensure they just make up the numbers.

That is why a new manufacturer is needed, or maybe a seperate 'privateer' championship, which will spice up the driving further down the field.

[10tacle]

Lexus gonna start @the SuperGT Series no DTM, that was an official announcement a few month ago and Toyota is implausibly. The take part @F1, NASCAR, SuperGT, Formula Nippon, Asian Formula 3, Formula Challenge Japan.
Thats enough, DTM would be too expensive without big effectivity.

[FIRE]

Lexus is already competing in SuperGT for the last 2 or 3 seasons.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by 10tacle

signed

Production based cars is way for all-private-teams-championship, like FIA GT or Superstars. When factory teams enter those championship, they begin their polotic games with demanding ballast preferences. So, silhouetts are way for factory teams, because they equalize all competitors. But DTM needs cheap silhouetts to increase number of competitors, because not every manufacturer can produce car for free reglament. Cheap and equalized silhouetts, but not "spec" series.

And we need "Division Two" with production based cars for independent teams equalized by ballast rules, like Superstars or FIA GT Because "cheap silhoettes" are too expensive for them

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by 10tacle

Thats enough, DTM would be too expensive without big effectivity.

If they need new market, for example, Europe, they need promotion, for example, racing, for example, DTM

[10tacle]

the european market....? Who can they arrive with the DTM when they racing @ Formula 1? The main market of F1 is europe i think.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by 10tacle

the european market....? Who can they arrive with the DTM when they racing @ Formula 1? The main market of F1 is europe i think.

If manufacturers think this way, they don't anything except F1 - DTM for Mercedes, WTCC for BMW, Megane Trophy for Renault.
They need something special fot their roadcars.

[awrb]

Certainly F1 is good for the brand, but if people can see cars that look like the ones on the road, they make more of a connection between the racing team and the car builder. And yes, they do a lot of motorsport already, but we are forgetting that this is the worlds largest car company and they are rolling in it.

[werner]

Don't forget that DTM is pretty good at giving attention to the competing brands, and not only during the race. At a meeting, fans are bombarded with stands, presentations, good looking girs etc, promoting Audi and Mercedes. It's much cheaper to invite (potential) customers at a DTM-race then at a Formula 1-race.
The DTM also races on tracks where Formula 1 doesn't. For instance at Zandvoort, the DTM-race is one of the mayor events, as well as at Brands Hatch, Mugello, Le Mans and all the German tracks exept for the Nuernburgring and Hockenheim. Maybe they should change the Spanisch or the Italian round for a Scandinavian one, given the lack of international racing over there, and the Scandinavian star-drivers in the DTM.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by werner

The DTM also races on tracks where Formula 1 doesn't. For instance at Zandvoort, the DTM-race is one of the mayor events, as well as at Brands Hatch, Mugello, Le Mans and all the German tracks exept for the Nuernburgring and Hockenheim. Maybe they should change the Spanisch or the Italian round for a Scandinavian one, given the lack of international racing over there, and the Scandinavian star-drivers in the DTM.

I think, they shouldn't change Spanish round, but increase their shedule for 12-14 rounds as true Europe-wide serie, from Russia (in 2010 it will be 2 excellent opportunities for that) to Spain and Sweden.
But, I'm afraid Aufreht won't like Anderstorp, he'll say it doesn't suit for dtm standarts

[helgi]

Aufrecht has already said that as soon as NeuSpilberg is ready (2010) they will be there. And if Eki doesn't go rallying for 100% it would be great for DTM to have a race at Anderstorp with its great bankings and long straight. And Haug said it's important for DTM to grow and step into new markets. Even that idea of super V8 week-end at Surfers Paradise doesn't seem crazy for Haug. He said,if australians and ITR make decisions on shipping the cars and all transport costs, it's not so impossible to race in Australia. So,no final breath at all.

[werner]

The greatest thing would be if the rules in Australia and in Germany would be made the same.
*fantasy mode on*
Maybe it is also interesting for Audi, Mercedes, Ford and GM to create a road-course-based serie in the USA that could adopt the same rules, and for Toyota, Subaru and Nissan to let the Japanese super-GT-series also use those rules. That would allow for more manufacturers to enter the Japanese, australian, German and American series. Now what about a world-cup with those cars and drivers in each of those countries:

-1000km of Bathurst
-1000km of Suzuka
-1000km of the Nuernburgring (the nordschleife offcourse)
-1000km of Road America,

wich also counts for the national championships of the hosting countries. National offcourse in a wider sense, like today's Australian series also goes to Bahrein and New Zealand, the Germans go to Spain, France etc, the Japanese can go to China, Korea and/or Malaysia and the Americans can go to Canada and Mexico

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by werner

Maybe it is also interesting for Audi, Mercedes, Ford and GM to create a road-course-based serie in the USA

I've heard Detroit "Big Three" want NASCAR to be closer to roadcars, so they want to double number of roadcourse rounds, to use special modification for them with more connection with roadcars. So I think they dream about V8 Supercars America.
What about DTM, I think they must get their old cars in 2009 to Chineese and organize new asian DTM, with Chineese, Korean, Japan, Russian Far East and Malaysia rounds.

[OJB]

Originally Posted by 10tacle

the european market....? Who can they arrive with the DTM when they racing @ Formula 1? The main market of F1 is europe i think.

Europe is a crucial market for Lexus, albeit not as much as the US. They didn't even launch in Japan until a couple of years ago because they wanted to distance themselves from Toyota.

Therefore, DTM would make a lot of sense in that their key rivals are BMW, Audi and Mercedes. Although BMW are focusing on WTCC, DTM would make sense for Lexus to promote themselves because it is taking them on at their own game and embodies everything they are trying to achieve.

Personally, I think Toyota would achieve more by badging their F1 team as Lexus (maybe when it becomes more successful)!

[juicy sushi]

i'd love for the DTM to become more interesting, and with more manufacturers, but i'm not certain that would happen. they've either got to move to a spec tube frame with a much less sophisticated, more tightly regulated aerodynamic package (to try and remove the ridiculous performance disadvantage between factory teams and privateers, as well as encouraging more privateers through lower costs and greater competitiveness), or do something a lot different.

personally, i've love to see them go to something like production car shells with all cars either RWD or converted to RWD from AWD, with the same 2 litre turbo idea the WTCC is tossing around, but with a lot more boost for over 400hp. give them big brakes, sticky tires, very little downforce, and some spec suspension parts and spec transmissions for cost reduction. but that's just me thinking out loud.

the chicken and egg problem that was mentioned of no new rules before new manufacturers join, but no new manufacturers without new rules, was right on the money. but i think the rules chosen would dictate who would join. either way, mercedes would need a lot less influence in the sanctioning body before the series would be really appealing for manufacturers i think, as no one wants to enter a series where a big rival literally has an inside edge...

[helgi]

BMW are talking to ITR and manufacturers. As I know Citroen want more races outside Europe too. And those Loeb's words when he compares world-wide WRC program with Europe DTM don't seem to be reliable. It's a lame excuse of some sort. I don't know,whether Citroen has a huge market in Australia or Argentina...
As for engines - it would be awful if they do the same,as WTCC. It's not DTC. It's DTM. And it was usually (DRM-DTM) some steps ahead of other European tourers (in technical).
A new Megan Trophy (excuse,I compare with silhouettes,not tourers) has 3,5 V6 and rather low rpm to think about fuel economy. Besides,you can dig even 400 hp out of high pressure. But it take you some time to change the engine twice a race after that.
4L DTM engines work for 6000-7000 km (I don't know exactly in motor/hours) without ANY problems. Isn't it a real economy?

[Valenok]

New Megane Trophy has practically stock 3.5L V6 Nissan engine produce around 360bhp. This engine in F-Renault produce 450-500bhp during whole season - 18-20 125km races, more than DTM. DTM engines don't use all modern technologies. Like FSI
But 2L turbochargered engine about 500bhp would have too short life, or too big price. I think, DTM engines should be smaller than nowdays V8, but bigger then 2.0L. For example 2.5-3.0L torbochargered 6-cylindres. This sheme is very popular in modern cars, you can find it in Merc's, Audi, BMW, Lexus and Citroen. So, it is way to popularize their car.

[kurtiejjj]

-Why don't stipulate that all cars should retain their original metal shells, bonnets and boot lids but perhaps allow a carbon fibre roof for rigidity and just a normal roll cage with carbon fibre reinforcements for safety.

-Allow the same wide arches as seen at the moment. So the cars will still be cool and look insane.

-Then stipulate manufacturers may only use 3.5 litre 6-cylinder engines, with an engine block that is also used in their road-cars. They are still allowed to change just about any of its internal components. This will mean a nice challenge for the manufacturer and still be reasonably cost-effective. And as most premium manufacturers have a V6 in their range this won't be a problem. Audi, Mercedes, Alfa, BMW, Lexus, Jaguar, Opel, Citroen, Peugeot, Honda, Chevrolet; they all have one in their range.

-Mount the engine longditually and only allow a sequential gearbox that is the same for all the manufacturers, there will be at least some economy of scale involved.

-Certainly NOT stipulate spec suspension parts or other spec drive-train parts apart from gearboxes. There will be no challenge for the manufacuters. That is really the whole point; most manufacturers want to show their engineering excellence and the fact that their cars are quicker than others. With all of these series-spec parts it will be a lot less attractive for manufacturers to enter the series.

-Privateers should be able to buy these race cars from the factory.

-Find more manufacturers.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by kurtiejjj

...

No need. There's already a working set of touring car racing technical regulations suitable for Mercedes, Audi, BMW and so-on. It's also a damn sight cheaper and used world wide. Here it is (PDF).









Seriously, why make your own solution when there already is one. It's called Super 2000.

[Martin Haven]

Improve Super2000 by moving from 2-litre 4-cylinder engines to 3- or 4-litre v8s, in a 5-series type of saloon (there are no pesky hatchbacks in THAT market) and definitely NO turbos/diesels...

all to be RWD, with big open exhausts

So what if most road cars are FWD... all rally cars are made from FWD base-units and the manufacturers don't whine on about how 'we don't make any 4WD cars' then, do they

racing is a sport and it's supposed to be about competition between humans and entertainment... industry test tracks already exist... manufacturers, please stop ruining our sport and pretending racing is making our cars better... we know and you know it's just advertising to make your lame econo-boxes look 'sexy'

and while we're at it... ban 4WD for rally cars... Super2000 rules but with RWD only... none of this 4WD Fiat Punto nonsense... and NO turbos... if Hannu Mikkola, Walter Rohrl, Markku Alen, Ari Vatanen and Henri Toivonen didn't need 4WD or turbos, we don't need them now

[Speed-King]

S2000 is a nice rule-set, no question, but it'll never work for the premier German racing series, no matter under which name.

For you Brits Super Touring has been a golden era of racing, but over here - and in comparision with ITC - it completely failed to capture the peoples' imagination. The German Supertourenwagen-Series had great grids with lots ofdifferent cars, but it was never as popular as DTM before 1997 or after 2000.

Germany has a long tradition of super-spectacular race cars in its No.1-series since the group5 years of DRM and I don't think it would go over well with the casual viewers if DTM suddenly switched to relatively "boring" cars.
As one guy on the DTM-Forum said: "WTCC, why should I watch that, I can go and stand at the Autobahn and I'll see faster and more spectacular cars".

Not my personal opinion, but those of way too many of my countrymen.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Martin Haven

Improve Super2000 by moving from 2-litre 4-cylinder engines to 3- or 4-litre v8s, in a 5-series type of saloon (there are no pesky hatchbacks in THAT market) and definitely NO turbos/diesels...

all to be RWD, with big open exhausts

...

Super 3000

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by mattt

Super 3000

http://www.eurosuperstars.com/
Doesn't really work, either.