Category engine

[Casper]

Originally Posted by one five five

Control engines have no place in so called touring car racing

Yep, remove the rev limits and let's go racing.

[S griffin]

I think the engine regs are fine. The racing is still good and the grid is still big, so no need for a drastic change

[V8 Fireworks]

Should the Judd DB 4.0 be the category engine? It's manufacturer neutral, and at 10,000rpm it sounds a lot better than a Windsor or Aurora. At 115kg, the weight saving compared to a 195kg Coyote or ~215+ kg Windsor is considerable -- an important engineering consideration.

Onboard in a Judd equipped silhouette car: https://youtu.be/C8RehK7TqGA?t=148

After all, V8 Supercars are silhouette cars not touring cars, so who cares if a racing car uses a racing engine, instead of a road engine?

[Tourer]

Too expensive (particularly when converting Sterling to AUD) - plus airfreight; not enough torque compared to current engines; may not have enough km between rebuilds for current plans; may result in need for substantial drivetrain re-engineering after current engines & potential teething issues etc etc.

Juddy's engines are good, no doubt about it but not the go for this series.

[rich07]

The category needs to cut costs in a big way and a Judd engine whilst a nice bit of gear isn’t a realistic answer.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Tourer

not enough torque compared to current engines

That's what a gearbox and/or non 1:1 differential is for.

If you shorten the final drive by 33% (10,000 / 7,500 = 1.33), then for an equivalent 670hp, it should make the same torque at the wheels for a given road speed (or actually more torque at the wheels, since 670 > 635 hp of current engines).

Originally Posted by Tourer

Too expensive

Can you really put a price on saving 100kg on a racing car? 100kg! The likes of 888 would surely gladly spend that?

Less weight makes everything better in a racing car. Isn't Supercars supposed to be a high-end category!? The ticket prices they charge make it seem that way.

Instead the crate engine plan seems as if you would go there, and watch the same engines you find driving up and down your local high street in old Commodores and newish Mustangs. That's not terribly special to justify the $200 ticket price.

At least there used to a jampacked field full of action to justify the ticket price, but now there's only 25 cars on the grid anyway.

[Tourer]

Gen 3 will be designed so that it is ready for hybrid when the time comes:

We're set up for it but not rushing into it - will see what happens.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Gen 3 will be designed so that it is ready for hybrid when the time comes:

We're set up for it but not rushing into it - will see what happens.

They will regret it but stupid people do stupid things. Hybrids will add costs and complexity which are the two things they don't need. If we had the industry support and know how in this country it might be different but importing it will not be done at reasonable cost. Why would adding costs to a drive train that is already costing teams more than they want to pay a good idea and it will do nothing but alienate the fan base as well.

[S griffin]

Time will tell whether it's the right move. If it keeps the numbers on the grid at a good number of 20+ then it's a job well done. It is a massive risk though, particularly with the costs involved. Obviously there's no guarantee the current generation of engines will be sustainable, however it has worked well enough and the fans like it, so it will be a big jump to change to hybrids

[Tourer]

Bear in mind that they're already going down the crate engine path - so superficially at least, the V8 production engines should cost less than the current engines. That really won't be known for sure until they've run them for a while - if they keep going "pop" for example then the cost may not be lower at all. Often the case with genuine production components that they wear our quicker so get replaced more often and costs can even be higher.

There are off the shelf, simple hybrid systems (more like a power adder really) coming online and a system like that might work, particularly IF NASCAR does go that way - similar engines, hybrid system - would let Supercars cost it out in advance, understand the pros and cons and if it makes sense, go with something that is somewhat known.

[Casper]

If hybrids are introduced it will be for one reason only and that is because it can be seen as trendy and keeping up with what is happening elsewhere. The big problem in this country is the expertise to run a hybrid in a race car simply does not exist and if maintenance and parts are required who is going to do that. The same would be said for full electric, no one in Oz has got the expertise, certainly no one in motor racing though full electric would in the end simplify the drive train enormously. The only hybrid expertise in Oz is in dealerships and they don't work on race cars.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Casper

If hybrids are introduced it will be for one reason only and that is because it can be seen as trendy and keeping up with what is happening elsewhere. The big problem in this country is the expertise to run a hybrid in a race car simply does not exist and if maintenance and parts are required who is going to do that. The same would be said for full electric, no one in Oz has got the expertise, certainly no one in motor racing though full electric would in the end simplify the drive train enormously. The only hybrid expertise in Oz is in dealerships and they don't work on race cars.

That been said, Walkinshaw has access to McLaren Technology through Zak Brown, DJR has access to the Penske's organisation who are looking at Hybrid tech for Indycar next season through their former partnership and current sponsorship.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Razor

That been said, Walkinshaw has access to McLaren Technology through Zak Brown, DJR has access to the Penske's organisation who are looking at Hybrid tech for Indycar next season through their former partnership and current sponsorship.

But what about all the other competitors? The expertise surrounding ICE's is widely available by everyone including me and you but that is not the case for either BEV or hybrid cars. No matter how it is spun if two teams as you suggest had access it is not exactly a true and level playing field.

[Just Do It!]

Alan Gow found a control hybrid sytem that was very cost-effective

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Alan Gow found a control hybrid sytem that was very cost-effective

Not a quality that is found in abundance for our local touring car series.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Alan Gow found a control hybrid sytem that was very cost-effective

UK made and supported, not something we can emulate here. Honestly, I cannot think of one positive aspect to using a hybrid drive train, a full electric one is a different thing altogether and there are many positives to going full electric when the technology allows but that definitely is not now. Full electric has the same disadvantage as hybrid, technical support is not widely available here. Actually the guys who maintain electric forklifts etc most probably have the most expertise.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

Honestly, I cannot think of one positive aspect to using a hybrid drive train

It's more acceptable to sponsors. "Is it a hybrid? Is it environmentally friendly?", those are the first things potential sponsors ask.

That's the reason for going hybrid in the BTCC. After all, it's not realistic to expect the whole field to be able to find sponsorship from oil companies, parts companies, tool companies or energy drinks!

Going to direct-injected crate engines that are bit more fuel efficient is certainly a step in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Casper

Full electric has the same disadvantage as hybrid, technical support is not widely available here.

Why not have Supercars or Pace Innovations or Harrop Engineering set up a company with the necessary expertise then?

Originally Posted by Casper

The expertise surrounding ICE's is widely available.

Is it? Who casts engines in Australia any more, be they racing engines, production engines or otherwise? Why should that racing engine expertise be with companies like AER, Judd, Gibson and Cosworth in the UK, instead of being home-grown in Australia -- where is the racing knowledge of the Repco engine days!?

The only way for the category engine to be brand-agnostic is for it to be based on a block designed from scratch, after all.

[Casper]

That's a good idea, give them a call and see how far you get. Why would adding complexity and costs of a hybrid system be an advantage? The Eco climate so to speak hardly exists in Oz but in the UK companies are falling over each other to get on the band wagon so your idea of added interest and sponsorship money has limited scope in Oz. Get the federal government to get on the climate bandwagon full speed and make it more attractive for people to own BEV's or hybrids at a sensible price and that could all change. It will take a huge turn around of the social climate in Australia before technology and expertise of alternate energy vehicles becomes generally available here.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Why not have Supercars or Pace Innovations or Harrop Engineering set up a company with the necessary expertise then?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Obviously achieving parity is hard, especially for a series low on dollars. Can we just do away with the red vs blue schtick and have ONE engine and ONE body type? No more parity controversy, substantially cheaper, best team/driver will win, manufacturers no longer need to be relyed upon etc.

An excellent suggestion!

What should this category engine be? A Ford Alluminator 5.2 or a Chevrolet LS3 6.2? Or perhaps keep it neutral by using Kelly Grove Racing 5.0 Nissan VK engines?

Do V8 Supercars have enough budget to cast their own manufacturer agnostic block? Or should they go to an independent engine like the aforementioned Judd, Gibson etc perhaps branded as the "Repco V8"?

Hmm, the KR V8 with the stock heads (as opposed to the blanks) seems like the way to go IMO. It's a proven reliable motor and it's brand agnostic between Ford and Chevrolet. It could run as the original 5.6 capacity, with higher compression pistons (say 12:1 or 13:1), perhaps? Or even keep it at 5000cc for the purposes of tradition?

Stuffed full of all the good gear with a Bryant billet crank, Forged connecting rods, JE 13:1 pistons and CNC ported heads. It also features a custom made timing chain system to eliminate the variable valve timing which can cause problems at high RPM. The inlet manifold is a Kelly Racing V8 Supercar piece and the headers are custom made with correct length primaries into a straight through system that is frighteningly loud.

https://worldtimeattack.com/index.ph...e-attack-ft86/
https://dvuf43m2z0i9c.cloudfront.net...Sport86-01.jpg

A good bit of kit!

[Casper]

This mob make crate motors and apply a badge as needed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzr2U8bGpvc

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

This mob make crate motors and apply a badge as needed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzr2U8bGpvc

It does seem like it could work!

I guess this is what you would want to keep things the same, with the same BOSS 302 engine and replica BOSS 302 engine as they race now:
https://blueprintengines.com/product...tion-bp3027ctf

But when you do all the stuff you need to do to get it from 370hp to 600hp, like machining the block, roller bearings, dry sump, ITBs etc, I don't see how it would work out any cheaper than buying a block from Ford Racing and doing all the same machining to it?

But certainly it would be brand agnostic.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Casper

This mob make crate motors and apply a badge as needed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzr2U8bGpvc

Impressive

[Casper]

I have been around enough engine builders and seen how they operate to know that half the crap they spout is just that. They are the single most despised people in motor sport from what I have seen and the way a lot of them operate is close to fraud IMHO. Bolt a turbo or better yet a supercharger to a stock block and replace the motor when it blows up would be cheaper than paying engine builders stupid amounts of money.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

But when you do all the stuff you need to do to get it from 370hp to 600hp, like machining the block, roller bearings, dry sump, ITBs etc, I don't see how it would work out any cheaper than buying a block from Ford Racing and doing all the same machining to it?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

I have been around enough engine builders and seen how they operate to know that half the crap they spout is just that.

SC confirms 5.4 Coyote and 5.7 LT, presumably using a variation on the existing 7500rpm cumulative power criteria.

IMHO, this is a mess and a stupid idea.

1) Why not use the standard 5.2 Alluminator and 6.2 LT1 capacities, and balance the difference in maximum manufacturer recommended rpm (8200 & 6600) using a 24% shorter diff ratio on the Ford so the engines redline and change gear at the same road speed?

The off-the-shelf Alluminator is all forged (at 12:1 compression), and the off-the-shelf LT1 is forged apart from the pistons, so you could just drop a set of forged pistons in it (perhaps bringing it to 12:1). Obviously you'd have to do cams, porting work, intake manifold, extractors etc to both engines anyway.


2) Or if you are going to make custom capacities, then why keep the trusty 5.0L regulation (so a fairly stock Coyote bottom end or with the Voodoo flatplane crank (since the 0.2L extra is from the overbore and spray-on cylinder liner), and a custom destroked crank for the Chevrolet -- it will give the Chevy a very favourable rod-to-stroke length ratio which should be good for reliability)?

As it is however, the stroked out Coyote will have an extremely unfavourable rod-to-stroke length ratio which could hamper reliability -- not that this would bother the administration that some might say seems biased in favour of General Motors...


Supercars' skill at making former fans lose interest in the category really knows no bounds...

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

1) Why not use the standard 5.2 Alluminator and 6.2 LT1 capacities, and balance the difference in maximum manufacturer recommended rpm (8200 & 6600) using a 24% shorter diff ratio on the Ford so the engines redline and change gear at the same road speed?

Power under the curve would be an issue, not how much but the curve itself would have a totally different shape.