2011 F1 Lineup ...

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

Just because he's not your favourite doesn't mean he's not good.

No, he's not my favourite driver, but then, neither is Schumacher and i've never said he's not good.

I don't base my opinions on a driver depending on whether they're my favourite or not.

Want the best barometer of a driver? Look to see if they have been picked up by one of the top teams! He was on McLarens books yet they went for a rookie team mate instead? Signed for Williams, but they were declining (yet i admit that he beat Webber convincingly), reserve driver for Mercades etc etc. Sure he beat Kubica last season, but Kubica is the one who has been described by Martin Brundle as world class, never heard that said of Hiedfeld.

Fair play to Nick, he's raced in F1, he's made his millions and will never need to work again. He's no Rossett, Inoue, Mazzacane or Yamamoto, but then he ain't no Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton or Raikkonen either.

[Super Hans]

I tend to agree with Mr V regarding Heidfeld. He's a solid midfield driver and a safe pair of hands, but anyone who thinks he's some sort of overlooked superstar is misguided.

[Wims]

Just like Kubica imo

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Wims

Just like Kubica imo

The opposite I'd say.

Kubica will be world champion at some point.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I'd put money on it.

.......... hmmm

Selby

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

Disappointed by William's decision really. As I've said before, I find it funny for a driver who's essentially been part of the team for a couple of years now and who destroyed Maldonado in GP2 in 2009, has been dropped from the team.

I'm not so sure it was quite as simple as that though. In the early part of the season Nico couldn't get near him really, then there must've been a breakthrough on set up (and the opposite in fact for Pastor) as Hulkenberg suddenly became unbeatable and Maldonado became almost a complete also ran, in an ART car which was his worst season in his GP2 career.

I'm not suggesting He's better than Nico who has impressed greatly, but I don't think we know the full story there!

Let's see what he can do and if as Bella says he ends up being the new De Cesaris then at least we'll get some entertaining vieiwing and possible fisticuffs in the Paddock should he ruffle anyone's feathers with a rash move or ten!

What he needs to do is harness the basic speed and tenacity with consistency - that is the holy grail of any aspiring F1 driver really.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I tend to agree with Mr V regarding Heidfeld. He's a solid midfield driver and a safe pair of hands, but anyone who thinks he's some sort of overlooked superstar is misguided.

I agree, but if you want a safe pair of hands, someone who won't damage the car but will bring it home in the points consistently, he's your man.

PS I agree about Kubica, too. He's already in my top 5 or 6.

[jab]

He's a good solid midfield journeyman. Don't think he'd do a fantastic job in a proper front-running car because his pace would be shown up (as it was in 2008), but invaluable to a team like...hmm, maybe Sauber?

As for Maldonado, I think he'll surprise people. In a positive way. He doesn't have the burden of expectation on him like Hulkenberg had, so any good performances will get him extra praise, whereas with Nico it was expected because he's so highly rated. He does have potential - he's not a future world champion but he deserves a drive. It's just the circumstances that are a bit disappointing

Having said that, you can't say Hulkenberg isn't privileged - he had serious financial backing through his junior career and one of, if not the best manager in the business

[Jamesy-18]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Because they've selected a driver with backing? Shame on almost every team in motorsport history then.

Formula One has always claimed to have the "best drivers" in the "best cars" on "the best tracks". Without wishing to sound older than I am, I just find it a shame that guys like Maldonado who are basically buying their way into seats get in when guys who statistics show are much better, get hung out to dry.

I've always respected Williams because they are proud of being racers. However bad things have been, they've always found a way to continue without having to resort to pay drivers. Sadly, that's changed with Maldonado.

Maybe I'm being too hard on him. I just don't seem him as anything other than a pay driver. What is the logic to get rid of somebody like Hulkenberg when statistics showed that he out performed Maldonado massively in '09 and has spent considerably less time in GP2 before moving to F1? I generally don't see that Williams have selected Maldonado from a pure talent perspective.

It's a shame that F1 teams have to resort to this sort of thing at the moment. I understand that F1 is a business now, but before the TV rights, the glamour, etc, etc, it was firstly a sport. Having pay drivers in the top level of motorsport just doesn't look good.

I just find it a disappointing moment. Maybe I'll be wrong after '11. Maybe Maldonado will suprise us all like Kobayashi did. I'm not holding out much hope on the latter point though.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

It's a shame that F1 teams have to resort to this sort of thing at the moment. I understand that F1 is a business now, but before the TV rights, the glamour, etc, etc, it was firstly a sport. Having pay drivers in the top level of motorsport just doesn't look good.

F1 is now more meritocratic than ever. When the only confirmed 'pay driver' on the 2011 grid is the reigning GP2 champion I'm not sure we have much to worry about.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

Formula One has always claimed to have the "best drivers" in the "best cars" on "the best tracks".

It has?

If you believe this, you have quite a misguided view on what F1 actually is or "has always claimed to be"

[Jamesy-18]

Yes, on the majority, that is what it is described as, as well as "the pinnacle of motorsport".

You know, when "Formula One" is being mentioned in the same sentence as any of those phrases (or cliches) I personally don't expect buy riders to be on the grid, and I guess that a person who was totally new to Formula One wouldn't either.

[awrb]

The problem is that Williams have lost Philips and RBS for next year. I'm sure they'd only sign a pay driver if they needed to, and their accountants know more about their financial situation than we do. Maldonando doesn't seem that bad anyway so it's not like they've really compromised who they are. I'd rather see this than Williams run out of money, loose staff and slip back toward the rear of the field.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

Yes, on the majority, that is what it is described as, as well as "the pinnacle of motorsport".

You know, when "Formula One" is being mentioned in the same sentence as any of those phrases (or cliches) I personally don't expect buy riders to be on the grid, and I guess that a person who was totally new to Formula One wouldn't either.

Then your expectations are wrong

For a start, every driver has to buy their way up from karting. What you get in the upper junior formulae are the drivers that have been able to get funding or backing of some kind to get them there. You can't do it on talent alone. The best driver in the world may never have made it out of karting - Ayrton Senna said his biggest and best rival was Terry Fullerton, who never made it out of karts

Beyond this, in F1 history, there has always been a sizeable paying presence. The majority of the grid up until the late 60s or early 70s was largely made up of wealthy amateurs. Even when you had bigger grids in the 80s most of the midfielders back were bringing sponsorship. Many of the drivers that we now consider to be solid midfielders were paying their way - someone like de Cesaris or, in later years, Alboreto, who both had Marlboro backing. Very few drivers up until the mid-90s truly earned their drives on merit - as Super Hans said, it is only really now, in the late 2000s, with the death of the minnow, that the majority did

Formula 1 was never founded to be the pinnacle. It was formed as an engine formula before the idea of a World Championship for Drivers ever emerged - and the idea of it being an engine formula suggests the manufacturers were a significant part of it. Even if you go pre-war, before F1 even existed, it was always about the manufacturers - we remember it as the Auto Union vs Mercedes era, not the Caracciola vs Rosemeyer era. It was always Driver X of Team Y, not necessarily Driver X on his own

This whole idea of F1 being the pinnacle is a modern construct that probably rose around the time Bernie and co turned the sport commercial. Certainly back in the 50s and 60s, if not lasting later, sportscar racing was equally important, if not more important if you consider Le Mans

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by jab

The best driver in the world may never have made it out of karting - Ayrton Senna said his biggest and best rival was Terry Fullerton, who never made it out of karts.

It's almost certain that the most talented racing driver of all time has never even sat in a racing car.

[strider]

Now we're back to the days of Fangio when it was often said that the best driver in the world was probably an unknown taxi driver in Buenos Aires.

All we can discuss is the drivers who we have and there's an end of it.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

It's almost certain that the most talented racing driver of all time has never even sat in a racing car.

Now that is a very dangerous statement....
I don't want to create an argument but if he has never sat in a racing car how can he be a racing driver.....?
He races toys...? Then he is a toy racing driver, not a racing car driver...

However I would totally agree if you said 'the person who could have been or could be the most talented racing driver the world could ever have seen had never sat in a racing car....'
That is incredibly possible and may very well be absolutely true.

[madman16]

Originally Posted by strider

I agree, but if you want a safe pair of hands, someone who won't damage the car but will bring it home in the points consistently, he's your man.

PS I agree about Kubica, too. He's already in my top 5 or 6.

Agreed, solid and unspectacular. He was always middle class, nothing more nothing less. Plus you have the Fisi type who looked spectacular in bad cars and ordinary in good ones.

The way Kubica drove this year, i'd put him higher than 5-6. You could almost make the arguement that he was the best driver this year. The top 5 were all in the best cars yet all made some ordinary mistakes throughout the year

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by madman16

Agreed, solid and unspectacular. He was always middle class, nothing more nothing less. Plus you have the Fisi type who looked spectacular in bad cars and ordinary in good ones.

The way Kubica drove this year, i'd put him higher than 5-6. You could almost make the arguement that he was the best driver this year. The top 5 were all in the best cars yet all made some ordinary mistakes throughout the year

Joe Saward argues Kubica was the best performer this year. He got more out of his car than anyone and made fewer mistakes.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Joe Saward argues Kubica was the best performer this year. He got more out of his car than anyone and made fewer mistakes.

It's totally subjective based on his own opinion, which is fair enough, we're all allowed our tuppence worth.

However Joe rating Kubica ahead of the others is a bit like when people in the early 80's said Villeneuve was the best based on 'what he did with what he had.' (A view I usually take as well)

Again those kind of arguments have much merit but until said driver has his hands on a truly top car against a truly top teammate we can't really say Bob is the best.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I actually think Rosberg was the driver of the year for me. Look what he did with all that pressure!

Plus, he made very little mistakes...

Selby

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by strider

Now we're back to the days of Fangio when it was often said that the best driver in the world was probably an unknown taxi driver in Buenos Aires.

All we can discuss is the drivers who we have and there's an end of it.

I agree. That's the point I was trying to make, in a roundabout way.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

However I would totally agree if you said 'the person who could have been or could be the most talented racing driver the world could ever have seen had never sat in a racing car....'
That is incredibly possible and may very well be absolutely true.

That's what I meant. If it cost £10000+ a year for kids to play football, you'd not have heard of Wayne Rooney or Lionel Messi.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

That's what I meant. If it cost £10000+ a year for kids to play football, you'd not have heard of Wayne Rooney or Lionel Messi.

You're right in general terms, but some of these sponsorship schemes pick up drivers when they are incredibly young. Two that I know of are Sergio Perez (Telmex) and Brendon Hartley (Red Bull). They were only about 14 or 15 when they were plucked from their home countries on the other side of the world and brought over to Europe.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I actually think Rosberg was the driver of the year for me. Look what he did with all that pressure!

Plus, he made very little mistakes...

Selby

Yeah totally agree. How people can say that Kubica was the best driver given his equipment is anyones guess. Maybe his equipment was really, really good. I mean, even Petrov managed to haul that car around to a 6th place finish in one race. Maybe it just was a great car

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Wims

Yeah totally agree. How people can say that Kubica was the best driver given his equipment is anyones guess.

I think it's 'cause he scored a trio of podiums and stuck it on the front row at Monaco despite the car clearly not being a match for Red Bull, Ferrari or McLaren.