How easy should overtaking be in Formula One? - Page 3

ECW Dan Selby · 9 Feb 2011, 11:58 (Ref:2828337)

All very interesting points, OPF.

Couldn't agree more. I hate the term 'stuck behind'. You're right - how much of it is Kobayashi having balls and just being a proper driver, and how much of it is him being f'ing insane?

Selby

Marbot · 9 Feb 2011, 12:02 (Ref:2828339)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

You're right - how much of it is Kobayashi having balls and just being a proper driver, and how much of it is him being f'ing insane?

Selby

It's a fine line.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 9 Feb 2011, 14:48 (Ref:2828456)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

They won't be allowed to open and close it do often in the race, but I guess they are just testing it.

It was a quick movement. This surprised me a little, but I'm not sure why.

What's to stop someone from using it in a race? Is it monitored via the cars telemetry?

Marbot · 9 Feb 2011, 15:18 (Ref:2828479)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

What's to stop someone from using it in a race? Is it monitored via the cars telemetry?

During the race it can only be made functional by race control via GPS monitoring. If the car isn't within 1 second of the car ahead at a certain place on the track, then no wing function will be allowed.

I'm going to be very intrigued to see how 'teams' use this in qualifying. Will they get both of their drivers to slipstream each other on their flying laps? Can it also be used to overtake back markers in the race?

ECW Dan Selby · 9 Feb 2011, 15:21 (Ref:2828483)

Very good point. I'd be interested to see two drivers working together during qualifying!

Selby

wnut · 9 Feb 2011, 21:57 (Ref:2828749)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

During the race it can only be made functional by race control via GPS monitoring. If the car isn't within 1 second of the car ahead at a certain place on the track, then no wing function will be allowed.

I'm going to be very intrigued to see how 'teams' use this in qualifying. Will they get both of their drivers to slipstream each other on their flying laps? Can it also be used to overtake back markers in the race?

Wonder when we will start getting screw ups and bugs at clutch moments in the championship.

Or is that just cynical?

TrapezeArtist · 9 Feb 2011, 23:36 (Ref:2828812)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Couldn't agree more. I hate the term 'stuck behind'. You're right - how much of it is Kobayashi having balls and just being a proper driver, and how much of it is him being f'ing insane?

Selby

As he pulls the move off more often than not, I'd put it mostly down to the balls. And the fact that he simply doesn't seem to accept the conventional theory that you can't overtake.

Oran Park Forever · 9 Feb 2011, 23:42 (Ref:2828820)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

During the race it can only be made functional by race control via GPS monitoring. If the car isn't within 1 second of the car ahead at a certain place on the track, then no wing function will be allowed.

I'm going to be very intrigued to see how 'teams' use this in qualifying. Will they get both of their drivers to slipstream each other on their flying laps? Can it also be used to overtake back markers in the race?

It is so sad that motor sport's premier category has been reduced to this. After years of drivers complaining they can't get close enough to pass (except Kobayashi

) the rule makers 'give in' by creating another 'artificially intelligent' passing opportunity! As if KERS isn't enough......

If the great James Hunt was still with us, he'd be telling each & every driver (except Kobayashi) to stop the whining, get on with it & 'race' each other!
They already have it easy enough with anti stall, power steering & no need to take their hands from the wheel. I think it was a teenage Nico Rosberg who said it best after his first 20 laps in a Williams......."It's just like Playstation!"........Wouldn't surprise me if this new 'wing' button resembles 'R1' on the game controller.....

BTW Kobayashi isn't f***ing insane, he's just a good hard 'racer' who likes to pass the 'old fashion way'......in a car which isn't exactly a front runner either!

.

Marbot · 9 Feb 2011, 23:53 (Ref:2828827)

James Hunt drove cars that only had a fraction of the downforce that the current cars have. Passing was easily possible then, if your car was quick enough.

I was impressed by Kobayashi, but there were races where even he could not overtake for love nor money.

wnut · 10 Feb 2011, 21:40 (Ref:2829342)

It would be magnificent to see Koba in a proper race car that relied on mechanical grip and was relatively insensitive to aero disturbances.

Now that would be racing!

Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Webber, Massa, would all be magnificent in proper racing cars.

Bring back Procars, at least we would get one race over the weekend!

**Adam43** · 10 Feb 2011, 21:58 (Ref:2829349)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

I'm going to be very intrigued to see how 'teams' use this in qualifying. Will they get both of their drivers to slipstream each other on their flying laps?

I don't understand why this would become more important now we have moveable wings?

Quote:

Can it also be used to overtake back markers in the race?

An interesting question. I assume it is within 1s of any car, not just the one a position ahead. Although I don't know.

wnut · 10 Feb 2011, 23:36 (Ref:2829401)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don't understand why this would become more important now we have moveable wings?An interesting question. I assume it is within 1s of any car, not just the one a position ahead. Although I don't know.

Backmarker could become`a real nuisance when they unlap themselves then.

Oran Park Forever · 11 Feb 2011, 01:19 (Ref:2829423)

[QUOTE=Marbot;2828827]James Hunt drove cars that only had a fraction of the downforce that the current cars have. Passing was easily possible then, if your car was quick enough.

Was refering to James Hunt "the commentator" during the 80s & 90s, when wind tunnels & downforce became a major factor, he would applaud those who 'had a go' & hammer those who didn't, simply defining who was a 'racer' & who wasn't.

Kobayashi is one of the few who prove that it's still possible to 'have a go'.
He's having a similar effect on the establishment as Jean Alesi did in 1990 when driving the underpowered Tyrrell. Reactions to his passing moves on Ferraris, McLarens, Williams etc were "you can't do that!".........well clearly you can......& he did.........& fellow 'racers' like Senna/Mansell & Berger welcomed the challenge!

.

cmotd · 12 Feb 2011, 03:57 (Ref:2829939)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

Backmarker could become`a real nuisance when they unlap themselves then.

yes, very interesting point! drivers will be reluctant to pass backmarkers until they get to a decent straight for fear of those guys coming back at them if they come onto that straight in front of the backmarker.

if lapped cars are allowed to pass with the flappy wing thing in the rules now, i suspect that will be changed at some point after the inevitable complaints

Marbot · 12 Feb 2011, 09:45 (Ref:2830012)

A lapped (or slower) car would only be able to use its wing flap if it is within 1 second of the car in front at a certain point on the track just before the overtaking zone. He cannot use his wing flap during the race if he does not meet that criterion.

A driver overtaking a back marker using his wing flap should have no fear of being overtaken again by the same back marker, unless the back marker is somehow able to get himself within 1 second of the faster car in front at the same place on the track on the next lap.

Not going to happen under normal circumstances.

Marbot · 12 Feb 2011, 10:03 (Ref:2830020)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don't understand why this would become more important now we have movable wings?

I would have thought that overtaking in qualifying would also be easier, even if everyone is deploying their movable wings at the same places?

The cars should be able to get much closer to each other due to the reduced amount of wake that a movable wing creates, and will also reduce the "I was stuck behind a slower car" comments from drivers in the qualifying sessions.

This may allow some teams to take advantage of having one of its cars always being in touch with its sister car.

cmotd · 13 Feb 2011, 00:32 (Ref:2830307)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

A driver overtaking a back marker using his wing flap should have no fear of being overtaken again by the same back marker, unless the back marker is somehow able to get himself within 1 second of the faster car in front at the same place on the track on the next lap.

Not going to happen under normal circumstances.

i wasn't talking about a driver overtaking a backmarker using his wing flap - i was talking about a driver overtaking before getting to a straight - ie in a braking zone.

say you pass a backmarker going into the last corner but as you come out of the corner he stays within a second of you and can deploy his flap and get past you - and then you're stuck behind him again for the next lap. that's the situation i'm talking about

Purist · 13 Feb 2011, 00:50 (Ref:2830317)

Just let them have a proper Chaparral flap and be done with it (I just mean the wing element moving, NOT the wing being mounted 7ft high part of the Chaparral).

Teretonga · 13 Feb 2011, 01:03 (Ref:2830322)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purist

Just let them have a proper Chaparral flap and be done with it (I just mean the wing element moving, NOT the wing being mounted 7ft high part of the Chaparral).

Totally agree.
The 68 Ferrari's had an actuated chassis mounted wing above/behind the roll bar, flip it up or down as needed.
All this other nonsnsense about being in particular places behind various people, within so many seconds etc is pure #$%^&*.

cmotd · 13 Feb 2011, 01:30 (Ref:2830336)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Totally agree.
The 68 Ferrari's had an actuated chassis mounted wing above/behind the roll bar, flip it up or down as needed.
All this other nonsnsense about being in particular places behind various people, within so many seconds etc is pure #$%^&*.

you're both missing the point, it isn't a device to make cars go faster, it's a device to help overtaking. if everyone can do it any time they like then it may as well not be there at all.

the flappy wing isn't going to be as much a factor as people think, how often do F1 cars get within a second of the car in front on a straight? it's usually only when a fast car is being held up by a slower one. for example no one would have been able to use it against a red bull last season, when they were in front they were miles in front. it will have more effect in the mid-field probly

actually come to think of it i think the flappy wing will probably cause more inter-team action between drivers in the same car than anything else. webber & vettel would have been swapping places all through a lot of the races last year if they had this thing

just had another thought - this will completely open up pit strategy as no one is going to get stuck behind slower cars anymore! strategists won't have to worry about bringing a car back out behind a slower one, as their driver will be able to sail past as soon as they get to a straight bit of road

ITS THE END OF THE TRULLI TRAIN!!

Marbot · 13 Feb 2011, 01:41 (Ref:2830343)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmotd

i wasn't talking about a driver overtaking a backmarker using his wing flap - i was talking about a driver overtaking before getting to a straight - ie in a braking zone.

TBH, if he can do that, then good on him. Because he's obviously not that slow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmotd

say you pass a backmarker going into the last corner but as you come out of the corner he stays within a second of you and can deploy his flap and get past you - and then you're stuck behind him again for the next lap. that's the situation i'm talking about

See above.

Teretonga · 13 Feb 2011, 01:46 (Ref:2830345)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmotd

you're both missing the point, it isn't a device to make cars go faster, it's a device to help overtaking. if everyone can do it any time they like then it may as well not be there at all.
!

You may be missing my point.
I don't think F1 should have a gimmick like this to help with passing. Make the moveable flap open for use at any time or drop it completely.

If passing is an issue then deal with the aero problem properly, by proper chassis regulations not fiddle with silly gimmicks to assist and surround them with a whole lot of rules about what you can and cannot do.

cmotd · 13 Feb 2011, 01:54 (Ref:2830351)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teretonga

You may be missing my point.
I don't think F1 should have a gimmick like this to help with passing. Make the moveable flap open for use at any time or drop it completely.

If passing is an issue then deal with the aero problem properly, by proper chassis regulations not fiddle with silly gimmicks to assist and surround them with a whole lot of rules about what you can and cannot do.

i think that's too simplistic, what you're talking about is reducing the complexity of design of F1 cars to the level of GP2 cars - that's the practical upshot of 'proper chassis regulations'

the movable wing is a way of keeping the advanced aero technology of F1 AND making overtaking easier. This is the F1 way of doing things. If you want to watch GP2, then watch GP2

Teretonga · 13 Feb 2011, 02:30 (Ref:2830366)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmotd

i think that's too simplistic, what you're talking about is reducing the complexity of design of F1 cars to the level of GP2 cars -

Nothing of the sort

Pingguest · 13 Feb 2011, 11:07 (Ref:2830507)

Adjustable wings was firstly proposed by Tony Purnell and Peter Wright in 2007.[1] In their proposed 2011 Chassis Regulations Framework they reckoned that downforce has no road relevancy, but its required to keep the current performances while addressing the lack of close racing and overtaking. I still disagree with their opinion, but the document contained a rather interesting figure showing closeness of racing in various racing series.[2] It showed that slipstreaming has (had) an improving effect on lap times in Formula Ford, pre-1967 Formula 1, NASCAR and MotoGP, while slipstreaming as a negative impact on lap times in Formula 1, GP2 and Formula 3. Slipstreaming in Formula BMW also has a negative impact on lap times, albeit very slightly.

In my opinion, slipstreaming should a slight negative impact on lap times, because then
a) overtaking will only take place if one is faster than a competitor ahead, and
b) overtaking will still require skills.

An alternative to movable aerodynamics would be to reduce downforce (350-500 kg) and impose an absolute downforce limit. This would also allow the regulator to deregulate the bodywork.

[1] Formula 1 2011: Chassis Regulation Framework, A Briefing Note in preparation for the Formula One Manufacturers’ Advisory Committee, 2007.
[2] Idem, P. 14